Political Banter and Debate Thread

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Agreed, it's infuriating. I totally agree with PFI as a concept, I just wish they employed private contracts negotiators to do it.

Kern · **Posted:** Tue Jun 07, 2016 22:19

Admiral Byng was unavailable for comment.

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11843

As a supplier of military equipment, I find it a bit hard to blane then completely. Don't get me wrong, the mod is a clusterfuck of buzzword bullshit and it is more by the hour, but the def stans were set forth before this fad and none of these toss pots has the wherewithal or balls to remove them. The issue comes in the integration between 3rd party companies trying to make profit and the government having to pay for testing. This is most likely less about spec and more about deliberate specmanship, coupled with lack of funding to try and out wit the specmanship(although ineptitude to do so also plays a part, it isn't the whole story).

Cavey · **Posted:** Tue Jun 07, 2016 23:11

Bobbyaro wrote:

As a supplier of military equipment, I find it a bit hard to blane then completely. Don't get me wrong, the mod is a clusterfuck of buzzword bullshit and it is more by the hour, but the def stans were set forth before this fad and none of these toss pots has the wherewithal or balls to remove them. The issue comes in the integration between 3rd party companies trying to make profit and the government having to pay for testing. This is most likely less about spec and more about deliberate specmanship, coupled with lack of funding to try and out wit the specmanship(although ineptitude to do so also plays a part, it isn't the whole story).

.... £6,000,000,000.00 worth of destroyers, but there's a "lack of funding" for someone knowledgeable to just read and understand third party specs and technical submissions... Yeah right.

Time for bed.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Tue Jun 07, 2016 23:37

MaliA wrote:

"The Royal Navy’s fleet of six £1bn destroyers is breaking down because the ships’ engines cannot cope with the warm waters of the Gulf, defence chiefs have admitted."

Oh dear. Oh dear oh dear.

BAE are rubbish. I had to work with them, it is scary how bad they are.

JBR · **Joined:** 2nd Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 3214

Cras wrote:

Agreed, it's infuriating. I totally agree with PFI as a concept, I just wish they employed private contracts negotiators to do it.

That's interesting, tell me more... Because surely if you could employ good contract negotiators, you could get them in to sort out the actual building or whatever the end result of the contract is to be. PFI pays the private sector to borrow money to build something, and guarantees a return on it. But no company (?) can borrow money more cheaply than the government, so it wouldn't it be cheaper for the govt to borrow the money and pay the going rate for building?

All it leaves as justification is the 'off balance sheet' (hiding how big our debt really is) side, which is sleight of hand stuff. What have I missed?

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Cras wrote:

Agreed, it's infuriating. I totally agree with PFI as a concept, I just wish they employed private contracts negotiators to do it.

I'd be terrified of entering into contact negotiations to hire private contract negotiators though.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Cras wrote:

Agreed, it's infuriating. I totally agree with PFI as a concept, I just wish they employed private contracts negotiators to do it.

I'd be terrified of entering into contact negotiations to hire private contract negotiators though.

I'm so stupid. You just hire some private contract private contract negotiation negotiators, right?

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Cras wrote:

Agreed, it's infuriating. I totally agree with PFI as a concept, I just wish they employed private contracts negotiators to do it.

I'd be terrified of entering into contact negotiations to hire private contract negotiators though.

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 9:35

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Cras wrote:

Agreed, it's infuriating. I totally agree with PFI as a concept, I just wish they employed private contracts negotiators to do it.

I'd be terrified of entering into contact negotiations to hire private contract negotiators though.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 10:02

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Cras wrote:

Agreed, it's infuriating. I totally agree with PFI as a concept, I just wish they employed private contracts negotiators to do it.

I'd be terrified of entering into contact negotiations to hire private contract negotiators though.

Bravo.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

They do though. The law firm I used to work at did a fair few. The problem is the commercial underpinning to the deal and the massive amount of risk cushioning the private sector suppliers demand. they all demand the same protections so the government is somewhat over a barrel. it would be cheaper for the government to do it itself usually - the government's own assessments always adds an "optimism bias" adjustment to its departments' estimates of doing it themselves and lo and behold the PFI option then magically becomes marginally cheaper on paper.

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:12

MrChris wrote:

They do though. The law firm I used to work at did a fair few. The problem is the commercial underpinning to the deal and the massive amount of risk cushioning the private sector suppliers demand. they all demand the same protections so the government is somewhat over a barrel. it would be cheaper for the government to do it itself usually - the government's own assessments always adds an "optimism bias" adjustment to its departments' estimates of doing it themselves and lo and behold the PFI option then magically becomes marginally cheaper on paper.

According to that piece, this has nothing - at all - to do with how the deal was financed, it is to do with how the products were specified, in technical terms:

Quote:

The Royal Navy’s fleet of six £1bn destroyers is breaking down because the ships’ engines cannot cope with the warm waters of the Gulf, defence chiefs have admitted.

They also told the Commons defence committee on Tuesday that the Type 45 destroyers’ Rolls-Royce WR-21 gas turbines are unable to operate in extreme temperatures and will be fitted with diesel generators.

Rolls-Royce executives said engines installed in the Type 45 destroyers had been built as specified – but that the conditions in the Middle East were not “in line with these specs”.

You know, it isn't for the financiers to set technical specifications; this is wholly a matter for the customer/consumer. They should know what they want, and need; they should know what they're buying - caveat emptor and all that. This is a technical, not financial issue - of the most basic, fundamental variety.

Besides, all this bollocks about "contract negotiators".... L-LOL. We're talking about the ability, or not, of ships going into seas any warmer than fucking Portsmouth. Ships that cost six billions of our quid. It just doesn't get more fundamental, or fuck-witted than that, and all the obfiscatory apologetic smoke screens in the world will never change that fact, sorry chaps.

My *cat* could've done a better job.
Fucking useless. Again.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Can't say that I disagree cavey, I was just commenting on cras's comment.

The mod is notoriously shit at speccing stuff. For the new nuclear subs they have bought in consultants from Babcock to help them spec the subs....

But then the private sector suppliers they get to build stuff are also often at fault in terms of quality of what gets delivered. As ever, it's not simply a case of public bad private good, but a complete clusterfuck.

KovacsC · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:39

MrChris wrote:

Can't say that I disagree cavey, I was just commenting on cras's comment.

The mod is notoriously shit at speccing stuff. For the new nuclear subs they have bought in consultants from Babcock to help them spec the subs....

But then the private sector suppliers they get to build stuff are also often at fault in terms of quality of what gets delivered. As ever, it's not simply a case of public bad private good, but a complete clusterfuck.

Not 100% true. The new subs are built by BAE. The a class

Babcock normally do the refits at Plymouth. The t and v class

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Well, it is true in that I know one of the guys at Babcock who, together with some others, is seconded into the mod to help with the spec and design work. The mod see them as "independent"

KovacsC · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 11:47

Yes.. I can see them involved as they would have tge refit contract.

The sub factory is awesome, I enjoyed my visits there

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Re: political correctness and allegations of its sanity, this piece has a neat précis:

Quote:

Think of the tearoom bigot who, once upon a time, could voice old-fashioned sexism or racism without challenge. These days, he (schooled by Andrew Bolt and the like) moans about political correctness when, for the first time, a workmate answers back. In that scenario, he’s objecting to someone else exercising a privilege that previously he’d monopolised. He’s complaining, in other words, about freedom rather than censorship: upset that someone who’d once mutely endured bullying now feels able to say, ‘Actually, I don’t like it when you call me that name.’

While it might be uncomfortable to be thus challenged, it’s scarcely censorship. It’s still not censorship if the one-time bully thereafter feels constrained about voicing certain opinions because he realises other will think less of him if he does.

Freedom doesn’t mean that there are no consequences for being a cock. By definition, freedom means your audience has a right to tell you when you’re being cockish, even if by doing so they puncture your self-regard.

A huge proportion of the examples of what the right-wing culture warriors call political correctness fall into this category. It’s not censorship when readers disagree with a newspaper columnist, even if they call her a bigot while doing so. It’s not censorship when students mount a petition objecting to a visiting lecturer. It’s not censorship when activists rally against a far right group.

These are, on the contrary, textbook examples of free speech – and yet they’re routinely trotted out as evidence of left-wing PC censoriousness.

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 13:17

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Its OK Cavey, we know you don't worry about people thinking less of you

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 13:18

Yes, you're right there old sport.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

I wish to know what proportion of Doc G's posts are made up of quoted text

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 13:21

Mimi wrote:

I wish to know what proportion of Doc G's posts are made up of quoted text

Don't forget to include gifs, memes, pictures and all the rest - most of 'em trying to "yank my chain" by all accounts. It's actually quite cute.

Still, I don't mind having a stalker if they can make BBQ sauce *that* good. :DD

(meh - hope you refrigerate the mayo, Doc!

)

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Mimi wrote:

I wish to know what proportion of Doc G's posts are made up of quoted text

Sometimes I wonder if I do too much of "hey I read this thing I thought was interesting and here it is." Do I?

Cavey wrote:

Still, I don't mind having a stalker if they can make BBQ sauce *that* good. :DD

Damn fucking right you do.

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 13:28

I like BBQ sauce, what can I say? :shrug:

Principles is one thing, but sticky ribs and the like is quite another.
I'm a bad, bad man.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Mimi wrote:

I wish to know what proportion of Doc G's posts are made up of quoted text

Sometimes I wonder if I do too much of "hey I read this thing I thought was interesting and here it is." Do I?

Hehe, no, 'too much' would be to take the position that it is a bad thing, which it isn't at all, and provides interesting reading - it's just a very definite style of comment presentation ('debate', I would say, if that isn't too strong for the discussions here) that you have.

Also, someone has to read literature more taxing than 'That's not my ______, its ______ is too ______' books.

ZOMG Spoiler! Click here to view!

That's not my Cavey, its privilege is too checked

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

What's this barbecue sauce thing? Why have I not had any?

Kern · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 14:17

It's a code.

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38464

Kern wrote:

It's a code.

White Men Only

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

Oh, right. Is it a sex thing?

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 14:19

Mimi wrote:

Oh, right. Is it a sex thing?

Frankly? Yes.
It's really THAT good.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 14:35

That's not my Myp, its horse is too low...

myp · **Posted:** Wed Jun 08, 2016 14:41

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Re: political correctness and allegations of its sanity, this piece has a neat précis:

Quote:

Think of the tearoom bigot who, once upon a time, could voice old-fashioned sexism or racism without challenge. These days, he (schooled by Andrew Bolt and the like) moans about political correctness when, for the first time, a workmate answers back. In that scenario, he’s objecting to someone else exercising a privilege that previously he’d monopolised. He’s complaining, in other words, about freedom rather than censorship: upset that someone who’d once mutely endured bullying now feels able to say, ‘Actually, I don’t like it when you call me that name.’

While it might be uncomfortable to be thus challenged, it’s scarcely censorship. It’s still not censorship if the one-time bully thereafter feels constrained about voicing certain opinions because he realises other will think less of him if he does.

Freedom doesn’t mean that there are no consequences for being a cock. By definition, freedom means your audience has a right to tell you when you’re being cockish, even if by doing so they puncture your self-regard.

A huge proportion of the examples of what the right-wing culture warriors call political correctness fall into this category. It’s not censorship when readers disagree with a newspaper columnist, even if they call her a bigot while doing so. It’s not censorship when students mount a petition objecting to a visiting lecturer. It’s not censorship when activists rally against a far right group.

These are, on the contrary, textbook examples of free speech – and yet they’re routinely trotted out as evidence of left-wing PC censoriousness.

Quite.

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

PC, gone mentally atypical.

Kern · **Posted:** Thu Jun 09, 2016 13:37

House of Lords debates the pressing issues of the day!

Quote:

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether they will take steps to allow people to include honours in titles when completing forms on government websites.

Quote:

Lord Elton (Con) :
My Lords, can my noble friend give me guidance? When I write to people similarly loaded with decorations, at what point in the catalogue does one simply put “et cetera”?

Baroness Chisholm of Owlpen :

I thank my noble friend for that question. I do not think that one should ever put “et cetera”. One should just keep on adding them, because no one honour is better than the other, so it is right that one should put every single honour, one after the other

Link

MaliA · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 7:55

Disturbing and distressing scenes from Marseille. Is it best to just dock teams 10 points to ensure an early exit from tbe conpetition?

DavPaz · **Joined:** 27th Jun, 2008 **Posts:** 38464

MaliA wrote:

Disturbing and distressing scenes from Marseille. Is it best to just dock teams 10 points to ensure an early exit from tbe conpetition?

Why punish the team for the actions of the fans?

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

The fans are part of the team. Clubs are often penalised because of fan actions.

MaliA · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:55

DavPaz wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Disturbing and distressing scenes from Marseille. Is it best to just dock teams 10 points to ensure an early exit from tbe conpetition?

Why punish the team for the actions of the fans?

Because you're having a party and one of your mates always turns up with his mates who get lairy and the next time you don't invite him because it isn't worth the hassle because the street gets trashed, the neighbours complain and the council says no more parties

Curiosity · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:24

Whilst there are a lot of twats out there, it does seem like all British fans are being targeted by other nasty people (for instance, Russian fans in the stadium fired a flare gun into the England fans).

MaliA · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 9:37

Curiosity wrote:

Whilst there are a lot of twats out there, it does seem like all British fans are being targeted by other nasty people (for instance, Russian fans in the stadium fired a flare gun into the England fans).

Undoubtably. But I must be seen to hand out my arbitary punishments in a fair, even handed manner and saying "Hmm. Eastern european dans seem to like a proper tear up" after Russia and Poland's fans been getting tasty could be misconstrued.

asfish · **Joined:** 5th Dec, 2010 **Posts:** 3353

Russia faces a Uefa probe according to the BBC for their fans crowd disturbances, racist behaviour, and setting off fireworks.

This was against England last night.

myp · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:49

MaliA wrote:

Disturbing and distressing scenes from Marseille. Is it best to just dock teams 10 points to ensure an early exit from tbe conpetition?

Yep. Absolutely disgusting.

And England won't win it anyway

Curiosity · **Posted:** Sun Jun 12, 2016 11:57

Lonewolves wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Disturbing and distressing scenes from Marseille. Is it best to just dock teams 10 points to ensure an early exit from tbe conpetition?

Yep. Absolutely disgusting.

And England won't win it anyway

We'll have more chance with Russia docked ten points though!

asfish · **Joined:** 5th Dec, 2010 **Posts:** 3353

Not sure what a Uefa probe and or fines will really achieve.

The people who are causing trouble just go to do that regardless of where they come from, if they gave a shit about their respective teams they wouldn't behave like this.

Surprised that this is happening as I thought CCTV and shared intelligence had shut most of these people down and that they could be banned from travel etc?

asfish · **Joined:** 5th Dec, 2010 **Posts:** 3353

There are going to kick the UK and Russia out if there is any more violence!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36510550

If we get kicked out we will have convinced ourselves that we could have won it within 6 months!

Grim... · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2016 0:46

DavPaz wrote:

MaliA wrote:

Disturbing and distressing scenes from Marseille. Is it best to just dock teams 10 points to ensure an early exit from tbe conpetition?

Why punish the team for the actions of the fans?

Because "we".

It worked pretty well in Scottish football, I believe.

Mr Russell · **Joined:** 6th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 12243

Operation "Don't like England and want to see them out; so go and cause violence there whilst wearing an England top" is go!

Mimi · **Joined:** 27th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 25594

Mr Russell wrote:

Operation "Don't like England and want to see them out; so go and cause violence there whilst wearing an England top" is go!

I

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Jun 13, 2016 10:29

Well personally, nothing would make me happier than to see that moronic, embarrassing, cretinous proletariat have to leave France early with their collective tails between their legs. Mrs C and I have designs on retiring to France in due course, and we, like many other non-football types, abhor the idea of the French associating us with these dullard scumbags.

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