Political Banter and Debate Thread

Mr Dave · **Posted:** Mon Feb 22, 2016 13:33

Cavey wrote:

Heh.

No, I think travel advice is relevant here. I mean, if it isn't even (remotely) safe for a mere individual to travel to a country for fear of "high threat of kidnap "anywhere" in that country, common violent crime, piracy, bombings etc., as advised by multiple different authorities/agencies, then to my mind at least this is strongly supportive of not handing back precious antiquities on the grounds that they'll likely be lost foreever, regardless of the moral wherefores.

Essentially it's a moral vs. pragmatic dilemma and (IMO) to suggest there's a clear cut, easy answer either way is clearly simplistic bollocks. You know, these things (like many others) are just more layered and complicated than that, and they deserve more than knee-jerk moral soundbites to (try to) address them in the "least bad" way.

Shades of grey man, shades of grey.

I think either I'm misunderstanding something you're saying, or you're not getting me.

Probably me.

Cavey · **Posted:** Mon Feb 22, 2016 13:41

Sorry Dave, it's probably me.
I've had a heavy weekend. Very heavy.

Bobbyaro · **Joined:** 18th Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 11843

But the journey has to start somewhere. The people who are causing these issues are doing so for reasons of gain because they have nothing, or feel they can get more by doing [bad stuff]. Maybe if there treasures hadn't been stolen, and maybe if they had them back, that bit of pride would surface and fewer people would behave "badly". And maybe they would gain from having these treasures back from tourism instead of London, meaning they don't need to do "bad stuff" to get by.

A lot of maybes, granted, but....

Kern · **Posted:** Mon Feb 22, 2016 14:01

Curiosity wrote:

Not that there's no corruption over here; just nobody seems to care when it is done by our MPs. Weird.

Probably because as countries go, we're pretty non-corrupt. See Transparency International's regular Corruption Perceptions Index for example.

Not to say it doesn't happen, and aspects of lobbying are still, as Mr Cameron once said, 'the next big scandal', but we're pretty good. The most interesting thing about the expenses scandal all those years ago was how tame it all was.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:19

Politics depresses me. You've got an openly racist, fascist demagogue doing brilliantly in America, and over here we're obsessed with style over substance.

Take the recent PMQs. First you have the Tories braying a 'Who are you' chant at the leader of the opposition. Now today, Corbyn challenges Cameron over his misleading NHS info, and Cameron first insults Corbyn's suit and tie, and then makes up some new statistics that nobody has ever seen to 'make his case'.

The journalists then say that Corbyn was right, Cameron made shit up and dodged questions, but that was an undoubted win for the PM as he managed to sidestep the question and got in a good insult about Corbyn not doing up his tie.

Why not just get a fucking comedian as Prime Minister? It's so embarrassing, and all set up for BoJo to just stand there responding to death and deprivation by scratching his head and saying "whiff whaff" to raucous cheers from his boozed up chums.

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:28

Curiosity wrote:

Politics depresses me. You've got an openly racist, fascist demagogue doing brilliantly in America, and over here we're obsessed with style over substance.

Take the recent PMQs. First you have the Tories braying a 'Who are you' chant at the leader of the opposition. Now today, Corbyn challenges Cameron over his misleading NHS info, and Cameron first insults Corbyn's suit and tie, and then makes up some new statistics that nobody has ever seen to 'make his case'.

The journalists then say that Corbyn was right, Cameron made shit up and dodged questions, but that was an undoubted win for the PM as he managed to sidestep the question and got in a good insult about Corbyn not doing up his tie.

Why not just get a fucking comedian as Prime Minister? It's so embarrassing, and all set up for BoJo to just stand there responding to death and deprivation by scratching his head and saying "whiff whaff" to raucous cheers from his boozed up chums.

Well put.

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:30

Curiosity wrote:

Politics depresses me. You've got an openly racist, fascist demagogue doing brilliantly in America, and over here we're obsessed with style over substance.

Take the recent PMQs. First you have the Tories braying a 'Who are you' chant at the leader of the opposition. Now today, Corbyn challenges Cameron over his misleading NHS info, and Cameron first insults Corbyn's suit and tie, and then makes up some new statistics that nobody has ever seen to 'make his case'.

The journalists then say that Corbyn was right, Cameron made shit up and dodged questions, but that was an undoubted win for the PM as he managed to sidestep the question and got in a good insult about Corbyn not doing up his tie.

Why not just get a fucking comedian as Prime Minister? It's so embarrassing, and all set up for BoJo to just stand there responding to death and deprivation by scratching his head and saying "whiff whaff" to raucous cheers from his boozed up chums.

Do you know what Curio? I have to agree with you.
PMQs is an utter fucking travesty (no-one is ever going to get the better of "Flashman" Cameron), yet the people get the leaders they deserve and elect. The era where actual expertise mattered more in politics than style came to an abrupt end in 1997; ironically Labour did more than anyone else to bring about these changes, which I'm sure you'll concede.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:32

Yeah, I don't think anyone is better or more to blame necessarily, it's just sad that it's more spectacle now than anything else. Corbyn is trying to improve things, but as much as I admire his integrity, he's on an absolute hiding to nothing at the moment.

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:33

Lonewolves wrote:

Well put.

I think me and Myp getting beered up, and then trading political insults as over home made "dispatch boxes" on each side of a pool table would be a feck sight more entertaining and about as relevant.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:33

Cavey wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

Well put.

I think me and Myp getting beered up, and then trading political insults as over home made "dispatch boxes" on each side of a pool table would be a feck sight more entertaining and about as relevant.

Well, that's Friday night at the cottage sorted!

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:34

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:36

Cavey wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

Well put.

I think me and Myp getting beered up, and then trading political insults as over home made "dispatch boxes" on each side of a pool table would be a feck sight more entertaining and about as relevant.

I'm pretty sure we already did this. :DD

While you were beating me. :'(

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:40

Yeh you may have a point there

Mind you I think we drew, man. It's just that WE VANQUISHED TEH GIRLZ. O YEAH BABY! :metul:

Jem · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:40

Cavey wrote:

Yeh you may have a point there

Mind you I think we drew, man. It's just that WE VANQUISHED TEH GIRLZ. O YEAH BABY! :metul:

I was quite drunk, in my defence

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:41

Jem wrote:

I was quite drunk, in my defence

I'm not sure your default state can be used as a defence.

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:42

Hey that was quick! :luv:

No worries Jem, there's no way I could pull it off again, bet you'll thrash us next time.

Jem · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:43

Lonewolves wrote:

Jem wrote:

I was quite drunk, in my defence

I'm not sure your default state can be used as a defence.

Jem · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:45

Cavey wrote:

No worries Jem, there's no way I could pull it off again, bet you'll thrash us next time.

That's about as likely as me being sober... :DD

MaliA · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:46

Cavey wrote:

:D

Hey that was quick! :luv:

No worries Jem, there's no way I could pull it off again

No sense going off half cocked

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:47

Jem wrote:

Cavey wrote:

No worries Jem, there's no way I could pull it off again, bet you'll thrash us next time.

That's about as likely as me being sober... :DD

Also unlikely for other reasons. ?:|

Jem · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:55

Lonewolves wrote:

Jem wrote:

Cavey wrote:

No worries Jem, there's no way I could pull it off again, bet you'll thrash us next time.

That's about as likely as me being sober... :DD

Also unlikely for other reasons. ?:|

Mr Dave · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:57

Jem wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

Jem wrote:

Cavey wrote:

No worries Jem, there's no way I could pull it off again, bet you'll thrash us next time.

That's about as likely as me being sober... :DD

Also unlikely for other reasons. ?:|

Myp isn't allowed out of the house anymore.

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 15:58

Jem wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

Jem wrote:

Cavey wrote:

No worries Jem, there's no way I could pull it off again, bet you'll thrash us next time.

That's about as likely as me being sober... :DD

Also unlikely for other reasons. ?:|

Oh wait, I was confused with who you were on a team with.

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:07

Also guys, does anyone *believe* that Trump has one his third primary on the bounce? I mean really, people are actually voting for a guy who says he's building a wall across the Mexican border and isn't even going to allow any Muslim into the US, like even on holiday? What, "the land of the free", eh?

Fuck's sake. Please tell me this guy isn't going to be President, guys. Please.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Cavey wrote:

Also guys, does anyone *believe* that Trump has one his third primary on the bounce? I mean really, people are actually voting for a guy who says he's building a wall across the Mexican border and isn't even going to allow any Muslim into the US, like even on holiday? What, "the land of the free", eh?

Votes are votes. He's miles ahead.

Quote:

Fuck's sake. Please tell me this guy isn't going to be President, guys. Please.

He's not. He's going to be the Republican candidate, is the betting man's option right now, but I wouldn't put any money down on him to win. He's unlectable with everyone who isn't a GOP wingnut.

Cavey · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:31

Thanks Doc, Science provides some relief here but I've still got a bad feeling about this.

Seriously, if this guy becomes President of the United States, I will be genuinely fearful for all of our futures.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:34

LBJ's campaign slogan about his Republican opponent, Barry Goldwater, comes to mind:

'In your guts, you know he's nuts'.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:36

Curiosity wrote:

First you have the Tories braying a 'Who are you' chant at the leader of the opposition.

It was a fucking sick burn, though. Even the chap that sits behind Corbyn was trying not to laugh.

Otherwise I widely agree. I give it two decades until a popular celebrity gets into #10.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:40

Grim... wrote:

Otherwise I widely agree. I give it two decades until a popular celebrity gets into #10.

Been there, done that. Didn't go very well.
\

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:40

Grim... wrote:

Otherwise I widely agree. I give it two decades until a popular celebrity gets into #10.

It's already happened in the US, of course.

Grim... · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:41

Lonewolves wrote:

Grim... wrote:

Otherwise I widely agree. I give it two decades until a popular celebrity gets into #10.

It's already happened in the US, of course.

Indeed.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

And, oddly enough, he was one of the best presidents they had.

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:43

MrChris wrote:

And, oddly enough, he was one of the best presidents they had.

Kern · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:44

Andrew Jackson. Dwight Eisenhower. William Henry Harrison.

US Grant should have stuck to his dayjob, frankly.

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Lonewolves wrote:

MrChris wrote:

And, oddly enough, he was one of the best presidents they had.

You don't think Reagan was awesome?

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:48

MrChris wrote:

Lonewolves wrote:

MrChris wrote:

And, oddly enough, he was one of the best presidents they had.

You don't think Reagan was awesome?

…

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Hey, if you'd rather the commies were now ruling the world, that's your right.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:51

Grim... wrote:

Curiosity wrote:

First you have the Tories braying a 'Who are you' chant at the leader of the opposition.

It was a fucking sick burn, though. Even the chap that sits behind Corbyn was trying not to laugh.

Otherwise I widely agree. I give it two decades until a popular celebrity gets into #10.

You don't think Johnson will get there then?

Curiosity · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 16:52

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Cavey wrote:

Also guys, does anyone *believe* that Trump has one his third primary on the bounce? I mean really, people are actually voting for a guy who says he's building a wall across the Mexican border and isn't even going to allow any Muslim into the US, like even on holiday? What, "the land of the free", eh?

Votes are votes. He's miles ahead.

Quote:

Fuck's sake. Please tell me this guy isn't going to be President, guys. Please.

He's not. He's going to be the Republican candidate, is the betting man's option right now, but I wouldn't put any money down on him to win. He's unlectable with everyone who isn't a GOP wingnut.

Pretty sure I saw that quite a while back. I bet his favourable rating has improved.

It's like some kind of fetish relationship he has with the voters. The more he insults them and tells obvious lies, the more they love him.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Your right, that data is from Jan 2015. Here's some newer stuff

https://twitter.com/adrian_gray/status/ ... 5800759298

Here is how Trump's favorability compares to every nominee since 1992 pic.twitter.com/fytFSDp8wB
— Adrian Gray (@adrian_gray) February 23, 2016

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

Curiosity wrote:

It's like some kind of fetish relationship he has with the voters. The more he insults them and tells obvious lies, the more they love him.

Best piece I've read about his appeal:

Quote:

Yet, contrary to reports, the Trump supporters I'm talking about aren't fools. They aren't racists either. They don't think much would change one way or the other if Trump were elected. The political system has failed them so badly that they think it can't be repaired and little's at stake. The election therefore reduces to an opportunity to express disgust. And that's where Trump's defects come in: They're what make him such an effective messenger.

The fact that he's outrageous is essential. (Ask yourself, what would he be without his outrageousness? Take that away and nothing remains.) Trump delights mainly in offending the people who think they're superior -- the people who radiate contempt for his supporters. The more he offends the superior people, the more his supporters like it. Trump wages war on political correctness. Political correctness requires more than ordinary courtesy: It's a ritual, like knowing which fork to use, by which superior people recognize each other.

(It's short, you should click through and read it all.)

MrChris · **Joined:** 1st Apr, 2008 **Posts:** 30498

Hahah! Brilliant.

HOWEVER - does Trump's lack of popularity with independents and Democrats out weigh Clinton's lack of popularity with independents and Republicans?

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 17:10

Clinton will win by a fair margin if she is up against Trump, as she will appeal much more to moderates. Sanders v Trump would be altogether a much more interesting prospect.

Doctor Glyndwr · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 32619

MrChris wrote:

HOWEVER - does Trump's lack of popularity with independents and Democrats out weigh Clinton's lack of popularity with independents and Republicans?

Clinton is basically a moderate Republican, so I think she has broad appeal. Sanders would be a much more divisive candidate. Trump vs Sanders would be fascinating, but also terrifying.

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 17:16

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Clinton is basically a moderate Republican

In the old 1980s sense of the term yes. Look at the 'moderate' Republicans who are left in the race for the GOP nomination.

Cras · **Joined:** 30th Mar, 2008 **Posts:** 49232

Primaries and elections are very different beasts. You have to be a registered party member to vote in a primary or to caucus, and registered party members don't really matter that much in elections. The undecideds are where it matters, and Trump struggled badly with that voter base.

JohnCoffey · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 17:33

I think my fave pres was deffo Slick Willy (Clinton).

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 17:36

JohnCoffey wrote:

I think my fave pres was deffo Slick Willy (Clinton).

Not Slick Willy (Harrison) then? Thanks for clarifying.

Curiosity · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 18:11

Lonewolves wrote:

Doctor Glyndwr wrote:

Clinton is basically a moderate Republican

In the old 1980s sense of the term yes. Look at the 'moderate' Republicans who are left in the race for the GOP nomination.

Oh absolutely. There are no moderates whatsoever in the Republican field. Kasich is vaguely in that region, I suppose, but he's getting trounced.

myp · **Posted:** Wed Feb 24, 2016 18:14

I never thought I'd say this, but I'd rather have Dubya back than any of the serious Republican hopefuls running this year.

Be Excellent To Each Other

Political Banter and Debate Thread
Countdown to a flight-free UK

Who is online

Be Excellent To Each Other

Political Banter and Debate Thread Countdown to a flight-free UK

Who is online

Political Banter and Debate Thread
Countdown to a flight-free UK