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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:42 
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Punching nazis is fine. They want to eradicate everyone from the earth apart from healthy white people. They deserve violence. Engaging with them has never worked.

I believe violence against fascism helped defeat it in the 40s btw.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:43 
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Lonewolves wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Mob mentality scares the shit out of me. The people who tore down that statue were every bit as (deep breath) "swivel eyed" as the racist fucktards the other day. I suspect something horrible is brewing. Possibly using the words "massacre" and "riot"

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but you appear to be saying people who oppose nazis are just as bad as nazis.

Please say I've misconstrued

People who form mobs and destroy things while hooting like howler monkeys are awful, yes.

I agree that the mentioned statues are flashpoints and need to be removed. But destroyed?

Lest we forget and all that. Those that do not learn from the lessons of history, yada yada yada


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:44 
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DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Mob mentality scares the shit out of me. The people who tore down that statue were every bit as (deep breath) "swivel eyed" as the racist fucktards the other day. I suspect something horrible is brewing. Possibly using the words "massacre" and "riot"

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but you appear to be saying people who oppose nazis are just as bad as nazis.

Please say I've misconstrued

People who form mobs and destroy things while hooting like howler monkeys are awful, yes.

I agree that the mentioned statues are flashpoints and need to be removed. But destroyed?

Lest we forget and all that. Those that do not learn from the lessons of history, yada yada yada

People are angry, and rightly so. Engaging and trying to talk to fascists has never worked. Neither has laughing at them or ignoring them. History shows this.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:44 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Punching nazis is fine. They want to eradicate everyone from the earth apart from healthy white people. They deserve violence. Engaging with them has never worked.

I believe violence against fascism helped defeat it in the 40s btw.

Coming from you, this is surprising.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:45 
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DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Punching nazis is fine. They want to eradicate everyone from the earth apart from healthy white people. They deserve violence. Engaging with them has never worked.

I believe violence against fascism helped defeat it in the 40s btw.

Coming from you, this is surprising.

I am tolerant of everything except intolerance!

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:46 
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Lonewolves wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Mob mentality scares the shit out of me. The people who tore down that statue were every bit as (deep breath) "swivel eyed" as the racist fucktards the other day. I suspect something horrible is brewing. Possibly using the words "massacre" and "riot"

Please correct me if I'm wrong here, but you appear to be saying people who oppose nazis are just as bad as nazis.

Please say I've misconstrued

People who form mobs and destroy things while hooting like howler monkeys are awful, yes.

I agree that the mentioned statues are flashpoints and need to be removed. But destroyed?

Lest we forget and all that. Those that do not learn from the lessons of history, yada yada yada

People are angry, and rightly so. Engaging and trying to talk to fascists has never worked. Neither has laughing at them or ignoring them. History shows this.

I suspect we're having two parallel discussions here. Let's merge


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:48 
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Having the mayor or town authorities decide to remove the statues is fine. After all, they were originally put up with the consent of their predecessors so this is just the democratic and peaceful process in operation, supported by the force of law. A mob tearing one down in an already tense situation is deliberately provocative and not going to achieve much more than more violence.

Moving on from statues: I'm stunned by how difficult it was for Mr Trump to criticise the far right. That's one of the easiest ways to pick up political points and he didn't take it. Heck, even Mrs May could find the right words. Then I thought about his record, and realised it's not that surprising.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:50 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Punching nazis is fine. They want to eradicate everyone from the earth apart from healthy white people. They deserve violence. Engaging with them has never worked.

I believe violence against fascism helped defeat it in the 40s btw.

But there have been Nazis like these everywhere for the whole intervening time. Mostly they just got ignored and hence never really got anywhere. Does one particularly vociferous rally in a town in America mean that the whole world or even the whole of the USA is about to be overrun by Nazis? I very much doubt it. By all means punch one in the face but don't assume that what you are doing might not have precisely the opposite effect to the one you are after.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:52 
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Lonewolves wrote:
DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Punching nazis is fine. They want to eradicate everyone from the earth apart from healthy white people. They deserve violence. Engaging with them has never worked.

I believe violence against fascism helped defeat it in the 40s btw.

Coming from you, this is surprising.

I am tolerant of everything except intolerance!

Violence begets violence, man. Do you think the man in the swastika themed flak jacket with coordinated assault rifle is bothered about an angry student throwing a punch? Do you think he's not itching to murder him some fags?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:52 
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Kern wrote:
Having the mayor or town authorities decide to remove the statues is fine. After all, they were originally put up with the consent of their predecessors so this is just the democratic and peaceful process in operation, supported by the force of law. A mob tearing one down in an already tense situation is deliberately provocative and not going to achieve much more than more violence

So would you have been one of those white moderates who espoused inaction during the Civil Rights movement in America who MLK particularly despised?

Violence is the catalyst for any social change. Sitting around talking about it does nothing. Again, just look at history. Do you think the suffragettes got the vote by sitting around knitting and organising peaceful protests? No, they smashed shit up.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:56 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Kern wrote:
Having the mayor or town authorities decide to remove the statues is fine. After all, they were originally put up with the consent of their predecessors so this is just the democratic and peaceful process in operation, supported by the force of law. A mob tearing one down in an already tense situation is deliberately provocative and not going to achieve much more than more violence

So would you have been one of those white moderates who espoused inaction during the Civil Rights movement in America who MLK particularly despised?

Violence is the catalyst for any social change. Sitting around talking about it does nothing. Again, just look at history. Do you think the suffragettes got the vote by sitting around knitting and organising peaceful protests? No, they smashed shit up.

Jesus. Fucking. Christ.

Why aren't you at scuffling at EDL marches every weekend, then?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:59 
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I'm not a fighter. But I admire those that stand up against injustice and hate.

Anyway, sorry if I've offended any liberal sensibilities here. I didn't expect much agreement.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:01 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:01 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Violence is the catalyst for any social change. Sitting around talking about it does nothing. Again.


It's a case of choosing one's battles. On this, I think the minority white-chino-and-red-hat-clad pathetic right wing scum should be shown up for what they are. I'm not sure they can change, but we can work to ensure that others don't fall for their bullshit or shrug their shoulders and equivocate.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:03 
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Lonewolves wrote:
I'm not a fighter. But I admire those that stand up against injustice and hate.

Anyway, sorry if I've offended any liberal sensibilities here. I didn't expect much agreement.


My 19 year old son is in full agreement with you, I think I am more on the side of the author of the article that Malia posted, the nazis want a fight, both to prove themselves men, and to point to the violence as a needs to defend themselves. That does not mean do nothing, it means peaceful protest, mockery, exposure and education.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:04 
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Lonewolves wrote:
I'm not a fighter. But I admire those that stand up against injustice and hate.

Anyway, sorry if I've offended any liberal sensibilities here. I didn't expect much agreement.

C'mon, you're just trolling now, surely


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:05 
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It's made me stop wearing my cream M&S chinos, for sure. Dam Nazis, spoiling everything.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:06 
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Kern wrote:
It's made me stop wearing my cream M&S chinos, for sure. Dam Nazis, spoiling everything.

Well, that's a win at least


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:08 
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Kern wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Violence is the catalyst for any social change. Sitting around talking about it does nothing. Again.


It's a case of choosing one's battles. On this, I think the minority white-chino-and-red-hat-clad pathetic right wing scum should be shown up for what they are. I'm not sure they can change, but we can work to ensure that others don't fall for their bullshit or shrug their shoulders and equivocate.

Dude, there are neo-nazis in the White House. Steve Bannon is Trump's main advisor and has featured in Stormfront for crying out loud. Nazis in America are becoming more emboldened by the day.

Like I said, laughing at them or ignoring them will do nothing. That's literally what happened in Germany in the 30s. And you can invoke Godwin's Law if you like, but he's ok with it. https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/8 ... 9634232320



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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:09 
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DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
I'm not a fighter. But I admire those that stand up against injustice and hate.

Anyway, sorry if I've offended any liberal sensibilities here. I didn't expect much agreement.

C'mon, you're just trolling now, surely

I've never been more serious.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:15 
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Please forgive me for not mincing my words when a leftist protestor gets killed by a nazi driving over them in a car when the discussion seems to be more about whether a racist statue should have been destroyed or not…

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:18 
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No, we should be angry. What happened at the weekend was horrible, made worse by Mr Trump's utter ghastliness.

The statue thing is part of the discussion about how we should respond and deal with this, and we clearly differ on that. And that's fine.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:21 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Please forgive me for not mincing my words when a leftist protestor gets killed by a nazi driving over them in a car when the discussion seems to be more about whether a racist statue should have been destroyed or not…

You're right. Of course. We should be running the Nazis over in retaliation, because violence is ok now.

BRB, checking my tyre pressure.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:21 
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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:24 
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DavPaz wrote:
Kern wrote:
It's made me stop wearing my cream M&S chinos, for sure. Dam Nazis, spoiling everything.

Well, that's a win at least


How would you tell us apart?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:31 
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Anyway it would be boring if we all thought the same wouldn't it? I'll leave you to your liberal/centrist echo chamber now.

I still love you all despite you enabling nazis

(Yes, this post was trolling - I couldn't resist just one)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:33 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Kern wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Violence is the catalyst for any social change. Sitting around talking about it does nothing. Again.


It's a case of choosing one's battles. On this, I think the minority white-chino-and-red-hat-clad pathetic right wing scum should be shown up for what they are. I'm not sure they can change, but we can work to ensure that others don't fall for their bullshit or shrug their shoulders and equivocate.

Dude, there are neo-nazis in the White House. Steve Bannon is Trump's main advisor and has featured in Stormfront for crying out loud. Nazis in America are becoming more emboldened by the day.

Like I said, laughing at them or ignoring them will do nothing. That's literally what happened in Germany in the 30s. And you can invoke Godwin's Law if you like, but he's ok with it. https://twitter.com/sfmnemonic/status/8 ... 9634232320



From reading Godwin's posts on Twitter I think his view on the matter is pretty level-headed.

I don't think it's even close to being a situation like Germany in the 1930s, not really. In 2017 too many ordinary people have no truck whatsoever with views like that. Trump is fucking awful, no doubt. But he's having tremendous difficulty scrapping a healthcare plan, let alone setting about invading the world and exterminating entire races. He's still just a president, not a dictator. There's too much hysteria.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:34 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Please forgive me for not mincing my words when a leftist protestor gets killed by a nazi driving over them in a car when the discussion seems to be more about whether a racist statue should have been destroyed or not…


Like it or not, appearances are important. Trump got elected by people who look at the news and when they see statues being pulled down they don't see justified anger, they see violence. They say things like "it's awful, the violence on both sides" because that's what the media reporting teaches them. Protest and action only drive change when they aren't doing exactly what the likes of Bannon and Gorka want - reinforcing the sense of separation between the American heartland republican voters and those who actually can see shades of grey.

This isn't the 70s. Those in charge now aren't LBJ, going to be driven to withdraw from war because of public protest. They're emboldened by it because it's giving them exactly what they want - a way to tell hall of America "This is your enemy".

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:34 
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Lonewolves wrote:
Anyway it would be boring if we all thought the same wouldn't it? I'll leave you to your liberal/centrist echo chamber now.

I still love you all despite you enabling nazis

(Yes, this post was trolling - I couldn't resist just one)

Oh you scamp.

So... you're not liberal now? How do you identify?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:43 
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DavPaz wrote:
Lonewolves wrote:
Anyway it would be boring if we all thought the same wouldn't it? I'll leave you to your liberal/centrist echo chamber now.

I still love you all despite you enabling nazis

(Yes, this post was trolling - I couldn't resist just one)

Oh you scamp.

So... you're not liberal now? How do you identify?

Socialist or leftist I guess. I don't really see myself as communist though because that fetishises Stalin/Lenin too much - and they conducted as many atrocities against its people as Hitler's Germany did with forced labour and executing dissidents etc.

Personally I stopped seeing myself as a liberal because it's wedded to capitalism and I'm anti-capitalist (specifically anti-late capitalism).

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