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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 14:58 
SupaMod
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I'm no big fan of Corbyn, but this election was about two things for me - rejection of austerity and rejection of Brexit. Those two things add up to one real result - rejection of the (current) Tory party. May is weak and being led around by the nose by the extreme eurosceptic right of the party and the only acceptable result for me is them out of power, hopefully resulting in a centralist move as they realise the hateful politics of the party right have to end.

Corbyn is popular right now not for promising unicorns, but for promising achievable social democratic policies. He's too far left for my liking, but alongside his policies he also brings the idea that we can break out of the cycle of professional over-polished politicians deciding the fate of the country off-camera while spin drives the debate. Amusingly May also appears to offer that, but through blunder not design.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 15:50 
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Cras wrote:
Corbyn is popular right now not for promising unicorns, but for promising achievable social democratic policies.


achievable...?
social democratic...?


They're neither; the "free unicorns" jibe is far closer to the truth. You say "he's too far left for my liking" after having vindicated his policies as laudable, achievable, affordable and socially democratic - the latter describing very moderate, left-of-centre politics (as distinct from the rabidly and laughably hard left reality). Bottom line is you, and most others here have bought into this stuff for years - which is entirely your prerogative, but I CBA with it any more, frankly.

Also, you'know, he's really not "popular" just now, he's just badly lost an election in one of Labour's worst drubbings for decades, and most sensible people older than 18 think he's a laughable relic from an inglorious past period of British history that marked our steep post-war decline, the like of which those 'right on' types wouldn't have the first fucking clue about. It just wasn't the complete meltdown that it would've been, had May run anything like a competent campaign.

If I sound angry that's because I am incandescent - with the Conservatives, not hapless, bumbling old Labour. I absolutely cannot believe the utter fucking fist of the last 2 years they've made, what with Brexit and now this travesty of an election campaign.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 16:01 
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Have you read the Labour manifesto? It's not some 70s SWP hard left crazy pamphlet. It's rational and realistic. If you suggested most of what's in there in 2005 most people would think it was in no way out of the ordinary at all - but the last 7 years have lurched us so far away from the idea that it's a good idea to spend tax money on public services that most people have just forgotten where the centre is.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 16:03 
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I totally agree that the Conservatives caused this election defeat themselves. Corbyn and the Labour Party did a good job of capitalising on it (not great, but good), but the opportunities to do so were handed to them on a silver platter.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 22:31 
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https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... hael-eavis

Well....

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:22 
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MaliA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/25/jeremy-corbyn-plans-to-drop-trident-as-soon-as-possible-claims-michael-eavis

Well....

Non-news isn't it?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 12:44 
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Lonewolves wrote:
MaliA wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/25/jeremy-corbyn-plans-to-drop-trident-as-soon-as-possible-claims-michael-eavis

Well....

Non-news isn't it?


I'm eagerly awaiting this bubble of lunacy and selective hearing to burst.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 13:27 
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The DUP have their deal... and an extra £1bn over the next 2 years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40403434

Nice negotiating from Mrs May there.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 13:33 
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TheVision wrote:
The DUP have their deal... and an extra £1bn over the next 2 years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40403434

Nice negotiating from Mrs May there.


Quote:
No Irish border poll without "consent of the people"


Does that mean they'd have to have a poll to have a poll?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 13:36 
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Cras wrote:
TheVision wrote:
The DUP have their deal... and an extra £1bn over the next 2 years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40403434

Nice negotiating from Mrs May there.


Quote:
No Irish border poll without "consent of the people"


Does that mean they'd have to have a poll to have a poll?

Online survey. Legally binding


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 14:48 
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TheVision wrote:
The DUP have their deal... and an extra £1bn over the next 2 years.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40403434

Nice negotiating from Mrs May there.


Looks like there is a magic money tree after all!


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 15:53 
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I would probably vote Tory if they paid me a billion pounds.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 15:59 
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LewieP wrote:
I would probably vote Tory if they paid me a billion pounds.


... Is a great tweet that I meant to favourite/retweet earlier on.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 21:01 
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Compared to the spectre of a Corbyn "government"? A billion quid looks like the bargain of the century

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 21:29 
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Just amazing. We, the tax payer, paid god knows how many millions for a pointless election and now we're paying over a billion pounds more just to prop up this god awful government. Did this government just forget about the economy and the deficit, schools, hospitals, the police and the NHS? How is this vast expenditure in the public good when we have public services that would love a big old cash injection.

Just unfathomable idiocy from the conservatives. The same idiots who were deriding Corbyn for reaching out to the young people of voting age like a certain demographic shouldn't be engaged in politics. The sooner the conservatives implode the better.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 22:12 
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Satsuma wrote:
Just amazing. We, the tax payer, paid god knows how many millions for a pointless election and now we're paying over a billion pounds more just to prop up this god awful government. Did this government just forget about the economy and the deficit, schools, hospitals, the police and the NHS? How is this vast expenditure in the public good when we have public services that would love a big old cash injection.

Just unfathomable idiocy from the conservatives. The same idiots who were deriding Corbyn for reaching out to the young people of voting age like a certain demographic shouldn't be engaged in politics. The sooner the conservatives implode the better.


That's how the natural party of government rolls, man.

Thank fuck they've just about managed to keep the Labour Party out, what with their evil plans of wanting some semblance of equality and the basic right for all folks to live a decent life, eh? (You know, like not getting burned to death in a giant inferno because it was £2 cheaper per square metre to fit the cladding that bursts into flames, as opposed to the cladding that doesn't.)

Mrs Hearthly is a card-carrying member of the Labour Party, she joined up to help make sure Corbyn wouldn't get ousted in the leadership contest, and paid the 'enhanced' rate of the time that was being charged to try and hoof him out. She's a wonderful and lovely human being (far better than me), she doesn't really do hate at all, but as she said to me the other week on my day off when we went out for a long walk, 'I hate them, I absolutely hate them for what they've done to disabled people' - and her eyes flashed with an anger that could destroy a planet if directed with sufficient precision.

Good luck in your coalition with the utterly fucking hateful DUP, you shower of Tory cunts. £1 billion eh, how many nurses does that pay for?

Still, at least they've been reduced to what they basically are, straight cash bribes for whatever and whoever keeps them in power, they'll get their payback.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 23:08 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

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I'm no fan of this dirty deal at all, but I'm already tired of the how many nurses will £1bn pay for line. If there's one thing that I agree with Cavey on, it's the way that labours victory has led to a further deterioration in any form of sensible argument in the past few weeks.

For a start, quite a few nurses as it goes as £200m of the bill is going to the NHS in NI. The remainder is also going on "stuff" and not just being pissed up the wall (altogether go one may reasonably question whether that is a valid spend, but there's fuck all actual discussion of that). Pointing at any spend and saying "that could be nursezzz" is fucking easy to do and lazy as fuck and reduces hugely the value of the real argument.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 23:16 
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Nice job in picking up the one throwaway line from my post.

The Tories have got into bed with a political horror show to cling onto power as only they know how, and £1 billion is the price on the receipt.

I'm sure this lady feels a lot better though.



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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 23:31 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

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I've not picked one throwaway line. I've picked a line I've seen repeatedly and lazily repeated for days over social media that dumbs down to a ludicrous degree what has happened.

And thank you for ignoring my comment that opened with disliking this deal hugely. But hey, we're in a new politics now where we speak truth to power and don't just repeat bullshit media sound bites ad nauseam so I must have been mistaken.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 23:48 
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Also, it's not our money.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jun 26, 2017 23:58 
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Lightening the mood a little, @hrtbps on Twitter wrote a perhaps slightly too subtly satirical article about Corbyn, which was pretty funny but a lot of folks thought it was serious. Including apparently Britain First, who've outright stolen the whole thing, including gems like this:

Quote:
Tory MP James Heappey took the opportunity to invite the Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn to an event in his Burnham on Sea constituency, via The Sun website for some reason. One attend would’ve equalled one respect.


http://www.britainfirst.tv/jeremy-corby ... orces-day/

Absolutely amazing.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:11 
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Grim... wrote:
Also, it's not our money.


Can you elaborate further on that please... whose money is it, where did it come from?


ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
(altogether go one may reasonably question whether that is a valid spend, but there's fuck all actual discussion of that). Pointing at any spend and saying "that could be nursezzz" is fucking easy to do and lazy as fuck and reduces hugely the value of the real argument.


That's a fair point and I'm sometimes guilty of jumping to a conclusion instead of asking questions. But the questions are complex and I'm not sure where to find the answers.... I could ask someone, but who? how can I be sure they know what they are talking about/aren't overly biased etc etc. I think that's a problem for the majority of the people actually.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:25 
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Money collected as taxes technically belongs to the Crown. And as its taxes, it technically never belonged to the taxpayer in the first place.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:34 
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Can you dig it?

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So, who did it belong to in the first place? The crown?

I ask, as I've never really thought about it before. And, while I take your word on the technicality, as the taxes are (in part) earnt from 'our' activity/work I can see why people feel a sense of ownership.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 6:37 
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It's generated by the economy, innit? I'm out of my depth already quite frankly.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:16 
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Gogmagog

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Cras wrote:
Lightening the mood a little, @hrtbps on Twitter wrote a perhaps slightly too subtly satirical article about Corbyn, which was pretty funny but a lot of folks thought it was serious. Including apparently Britain First, who've outright stolen the whole thing, including gems like this:

Quote:
Tory MP James Heappey took the opportunity to invite the Labour Leader Jeremy Corbyn to an event in his Burnham on Sea constituency, via The Sun website for some reason. One attend would’ve equalled one respect.


http://www.britainfirst.tv/jeremy-corby ... orces-day/

Absolutely amazing.


That is wonderful.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 7:40 
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Grim... wrote:
Also, it's not our money.


Yes but without getting into the technicalities of who creates the money supply and how, the fact is that the Tory mantra is always shite like 'Socialists run out of other people's money to spend' and 'We must live within our means as a country' and 'We have to repay the debt of the Labour years' etc etc, right down to Theresa May telling a nurse whose pay has fallen for the last seven years that 'There isn't a magic money tree'.

And then when they need the DUP to prop them up in government, boom, £1 billion pounds has been found down the back of the couch.

I know £1 billion isn't even that much in the grand scheme of things, but it's the principle of thing, specifically the Tory principles (or lack thereof) when it comes to scenarios like this.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 9:46 
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Hearthly wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Also, it's not our money.


Yes but without getting into the technicalities of who creates the money supply and how, the fact is that the Tory mantra is always shite like 'Socialists run out of other people's money to spend' and 'We must live within our means as a country' and 'We have to repay the debt of the Labour years' etc etc, right down to Theresa May telling a nurse whose pay has fallen for the last seven years that 'There isn't a magic money tree'.

And then when they need the DUP to prop them up in government, boom, £1 billion pounds has been found down the back of the couch.

I know £1 billion isn't even that much in the grand scheme of things, but it's the principle of thing, specifically the Tory principles (or lack thereof) when it comes to things like this.


I don't really do politics but I agree with Hearthly. To the ordinary Joe on the street, this deal sucks.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:13 
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Not if said Joe lives in Northern Ireland.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:30 
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The fact that this is good investment in one of the country's poorest areas is no bad thing. It can't be ignored that there's no way the Tories would have spent the money if it wasn't the only way to prop up their government though.

And the impact on the fragile balance of power in Northern Ireland is pretty terrifying. I can't see Sinn Fein being terribly happy that the DUP have just become the de-facto ruling party, nor that they've been handed a vote-winning bag of cash like this.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:33 
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Grim... wrote:
Not if said Joe lives in Northern Ireland.


Can you expand upon that? Because I'm not sure whether NI Joe is too keen on the DUP and I really don't know enough about NI policitics other than a few sparse bits I've read/watched. It might be too simplistic to infer that NI is getting over a billion pounds that average NI Joe's life is going to be enriched by that money. Like APOD said above money gets spent on stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:37 
Filthy Junkie Bitch

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Hearthly wrote:
Grim... wrote:
Also, it's not our money.


Yes but without getting into the technicalities of who creates the money supply and how, the fact is that the Tory mantra is always shite like 'Socialists run out of other people's money to spend' and 'We must live within our means as a country' and 'We have to repay the debt of the Labour years' etc etc, right down to Theresa May telling a nurse whose pay has fallen for the last seven years that 'There isn't a magic money tree'.

And then when they need the DUP to prop them up in government, boom, £1 billion pounds has been found down the back of the couch.

I know £1 billion isn't even that much in the grand scheme of things, but it's the principle of thing, specifically the Tory principles (or lack thereof) when it comes to scenarios like this.

See, this line of reasoning I can get behind.

However, worth noting that this money has already been found in principle, this is merely an inequal redistribution. Hammond had already said pre-election (and also supported by the recent debt figures) that the austerity would be relaxed with the deficit reduction pushed into 2022 rather than 2019, but there was no significant clarity as to how this would affect spending and tax decisions - in the ordinary and planned line of business that would happen in the July budget that I think we're unlikely to get now (our money was on a further CT rate cut, which is still being suggested as a further sop to the DUP, even though NI already has a lower CT rate, so I can't see why they'd be demanding the rest of the UK reduces to come down to their level and affect their competitiveness in the UK).

I have to say though, that much as Scotland and Wales (and for that matter, England) are seeing an unequal distribution compared to NI as part of this buy off to the DUP - some of the language used in the media and the like is quite anti "the people" of NI, which is not a good thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 10:46 
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ApplePieOfDestiny wrote:
I have to say though, that much as Scotland and Wales (and for that matter, England) are seeing an unequal distribution compared to NI as part of this buy off to the DUP - some of the language used in the media and the like is quite anti "the people" of NI, which is not a good thing.


Like this fine example from the Sun this morning, trying to tar them all with the same brush
Attachment:
DDUDxJ8XYAA9YBV.jpg


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 18:22 
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I see Boris has been cheerfully telling outright lies to the delight of the braying mules populating the Tory backbenches.

Corbyn apparently stood up on stage at Glastonbury and pledged to scrap Trident. Which is exactly what he didn't do, of course.



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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 19:01 
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I'm a nice guy and rarely say things like this but Boris Johnson is a cunt.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 27, 2017 19:09 
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He's a right fucking chump, clearly thinks that he's destined to lead but at the same time seems to portray himself as a loveable, bumbling, quintessentially English type of character. Which in itself doesn't exactly scream out PM material. But now even that doesn't matter anyway because everyone just thinks of him as an untrustworthy, backstabbing cunt. But in spite of all this I get the impression that he still believes he will be the Tory leader.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 13:14 
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Echoing The Vision's post above I would like to nominate Philip Davies as an MP of unparalleled cuntery. He's gone on today about how basically charity begins at home and we shouldn't be paying any money for brown children to stop starving when there's millionaires in this country that are paying too much tax.

I am assuming everyone on here is familair with his work but just in case you're not he's the kind of arsehole that does this kind of shit;

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 15641.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 57136.html

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 40751.html

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 13:24 
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Blame Baildon, and rural Bingley for that. Not me.i was 0.1% of WEP vote against him.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 13:31 
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I am assuming people are voting for the party in Shipley and not him personally. Well I am hoping so.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 14:03 
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Dunno. I could ask about, but I hang with the arts crowd, really, so somewhat red.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jun 28, 2017 14:06 
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What gets overlooked whenever foreign aid's discussed is that whilst some of it is good, wholesome charity helping to improve the lives of our fellow human beings of which we should be proud and encourage, it's also a very effective part of foreign policy. Chucking money at country to help them behave in a way beneficial to our interests is a heck of a lot cheaper than using the military.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 13:01 
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So after the queens speech amendment to give the NHS some money was defeated last night , the next one up is

'Should people in NI have access to the NHS if they want an abortion'

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/bl ... itics-live

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 13:21 
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Gogmagog

Joined: 30th Mar, 2008
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Location: Cheshire
Whilst I tbink of it:

It's important to note that in the recent case

http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKSC/2017/41.html

The majority didn't decide it was right to deprive NI women from NI of the ability to get an abortion free of charge, but that the law as it stands means it isn't unlawful for the Health Secretary to decide to not provide free abortions to UK citizens not resident in England. These are two are very different questions, and I think this was lost in the noise two weeks back.

Lord Kerr, in his dissenting opinion, is worth a read.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 13:36 
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Hello Hello Hello

Joined: 11th May, 2008
Posts: 13381
zaphod79 wrote:
So after the queens speech amendment to give the NHS some money was defeated last night , the next one up is


It was the cheers from the Tory backbenches that were sickening. Of course they're never going to vote for an opposition amendment, but to actually cheer at the prospect of making nurses, teachers, firefighters, police, etc - poorer, is a level of astonishing viciousness even for them.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 13:45 
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I think they were cheering about winning the vote. Celebrating the fact that, by the skin of their teeth, they are still in power. I don't think they hate firefighters or nurses, they merely don't give a toss about them.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 14:20 
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Unpossible!

Joined: 27th Jun, 2008
Posts: 38439
And me. I'm poorer because of it as well. Those nurses and fireman get all the credit. Fame hungry monsters.

Giphy "forgotten":
https://media2.giphy.com/media/K2Obpp8elmAFy/giphy-loop.mp4

FFS, giphy! You're barely trying!


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 14:22 
SupaMod
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Est. 1978

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What is that - an MR2?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 14:24 
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It's a Porsche 924 isn't it?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 14:26 
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Hibernating Druid

Joined: 27th Mar, 2008
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Yeah, looks like a Porsche whatever the number is.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jun 29, 2017 14:34 
SupaMod
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"Praisebot"

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Whatever it is, it definitely doesn't look like "forgotten".


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