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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 14:52 
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Cavey wrote:
But, notwithstanding, in very broad terms and as a general concept, surely it's always generally better to locally empower management, i.e. the people on the ground who are best placed to know where resources need to be spent, what needs to be done etc., rather than via some part removed, centralised body? Of course, this assumes that said local management is competent and sufficiently skilled in management terms, by no means a foregone conclusion - but whatever the case, successful companies ditched the top down, centralised management model in the 1970s.


I suspect there is an element of truth in that, chap, but then with education you do need a significant degree of central control to ensure standard approaches to curriculum, exams, inspections etc. In terms of the control of the budgets, this would be better controlled locally – which it was, when the LEAs still had any power over anything. Handing control of schools over to what are basically private companies is not the solution, and the results of the academy schools so far would back up that assertion.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 14:54 
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https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund

€141,324 raised of the €1,600,000,000 target!

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 15:22 
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Mr Kissyfur wrote:
I suspect there is an element of truth in that, chap, but then with education you do need a significant degree of central control to ensure standard approaches to curriculum, exams, inspections etc. In terms of the control of the budgets, this would be better controlled locally – which it was, when the LEAs still had any power over anything.


Agreed. :)

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Handing control of schools over to what are basically private companies is not the solution, and the results of the academy schools so far would back up that assertion.


I basically don't know either way, to be frank, but like I say, I most certainly don't ever feel comfortable with any ideology-driven politics/policies, not ever. For years I've been advocating for the shameless copying of best practices as observed (and studied in depth) from the rest of the world, in this case those countries that are reasonably socially compatible with the UK, yet seem to do much better, be it education, healthcare or whatever. Policial pride should not come into it and I for one couldn't give a fig if this is achieved via the most left wing politics imaginable - if it works, just call me Comrade Cavey I say. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 15:26 
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Grim... wrote:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund

€141,324 raised of the €1,600,000,000 target!


Awesome, what's four orders of magnitude between friends?
Sadly, even this €1.6 billion is barely 2% 0.5% of the total owed (corrected)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 15:32 
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Cavey wrote:
Mr Kissyfur wrote:
I suspect there is an element of truth in that, chap, but then with education you do need a significant degree of central control to ensure standard approaches to curriculum, exams, inspections etc. In terms of the control of the budgets, this would be better controlled locally – which it was, when the LEAs still had any power over anything.

Agreed. :)


That's not how this is supposed to go! I came here for an argument, goddamnit! 

Quote:
Quote:
Handing control of schools over to what are basically private companies is not the solution, and the results of the academy schools so far would back up that assertion.


I basically don't know either way, to be frank, but like I say, I most certainly don't ever feel comfortable with any ideology-driven politics/policies, not ever. For years I've been advocating for the shameless copying of best practices as observed (and studied in depth) from the rest of the world, in this case those countries that are reasonably socially compatible with the UK, yet seem to do much better, be it education, healthcare or whatever. Policial pride should not come into it and I for one couldn't give a fig if this is achieved via the most left wing politics imaginable - if it works, just call me Comrade Cavey I say. :D

100% agreed, again. As Kern intimated earlier, education is one area that politicians just can’t leave alone, and it all too often does seem ideological, whether it’s curriculum changes or restructuring of the school system (academies and free schools*, I’m looking at you). What they really need to do is just look at where we’re not doing as well as we might (maths, boys’ reading and writing, women in STEM, etc) and then go out and find best practice and copy it. You know, an empirical, evidence based approach to something.

*My GOD what a massive waste of money those have been.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 15:35 
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Mr Kissyfur wrote:
...and then go out and find best practice and copy it. You know, an empirical, evidence based approach to something.


:this:

:blown:

:)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 16:54 
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Grim... wrote:
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/greek-bailout-fund

€141,324 raised of the €1,600,000,000 target!


I'm glad you posted this. I was wondering how much they'd managed earlier. They have done very well :/


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Tue Jun 30, 2015 20:30 
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Greece: "Please, sir, can I have some more?"

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:18 
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Bailout now at 700k. A nice idea but at this point Greece need to default and exit for their own sake.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 10:29 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Bailout now at 700k.


Wow. Puts 'Wings over Bath' to shame!

Quote:
A nice idea but at this point Greece need to default and exit for their own sake.


Agreed. It will hurt, probably for a long time, but better than this farce recurring every few months indefinitely and the people of Greek suffering even more with even less control over their destiny.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:25 
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It's like a credit card company saying "Debt? No problem. We'll just whack it on a new card with a higher interest rate! Just keep up the minimum repayment. Forever. And you can't spend any money on anything else in the meantime that might help you pay it off faster".

I hope this ref. goes ahead . It would be interesting to see how the EU reacts to the vote. If they are not in favour of more indebted mess and it's reflection of the democratic majority, what are they going to say?

Having said that the proposed wording is bonkers and I have no idea what it means: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33311422

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 01, 2015 11:33 
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Apparently they have caved on most points, but by now the Troika want blood and are reluctant to negotiate at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 15:54 
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The Daily Mash made me lol...

Quote:
Pompous arse taking tough stance on Greece

COMPLETE nobody Roy Hobbs is demanding tough action be taken against Greece.

Hobbs is keen to see all Greeks punished, even though it is unclear how Greece’s economic problems have affected his life as a bakery supervisor in Wolverhampton.

Hobbs said: “The thought of the Greeks deciding to spend, spend, spend in a way that makes sod all difference to me makes my blood boil.

“A country’s economy is like a piggy bank. You can’t build roads and hospitals if you haven’t been putting coins in the slot. They need to be taught a harsh lesson. Only then will I be satisfied.”

Hobbs said Greece could learn from his own careful money management, such as writing down all the country’s expenditure in a notebook, even if it was small things like buying a Cornetto ‘because it all adds up’.

Hobbs’ colleague Nikki Hollis said: “I suspect the Greek financial crisis makes Roy feel less insignificant, because the only thing he’s ever achieved in his pitiful little life is being a tightfisted bastard.

“Also he reads the Daily Express and I think he just likes the idea of people being punished. I dread to think what sort of porn he’s got on his computer.”


http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/soci ... 5070299796


:D

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 15:59 
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Curiosity wrote:
Apparently they have caved on most points, but by now the Troika want blood and are reluctant to negotiate at all.


It's near-impossible to keep up tbh; one minute the Greeks have "caved in on most points" and then, apparently, mere hours later, are wishing plagues of locusts on their EU Creditors, or something. I think it's fairly clear to all concerned that this Socialist Greek administration is a complete laughing stock. Would you "lend" untold further billions to that shower, and ever expect to see so much as a single cent in interest or capital repayment that isn't itself part and parcel of yet another "bailout" set of Russian Doll loans?

At this rate, give it another 20 years, the Greeks will end up owing more dosh than the combined GDP of USA and China... that's a shedload of ouzo and olives.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 16:03 
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Kern wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Bailout now at 700k.


Wow. Puts 'Wings over Bath' to shame!

Quote:
A nice idea but at this point Greece need to default and exit for their own sake.


Agreed. It will hurt, probably for a long time, but better than this farce recurring every few months indefinitely and the people of Greek suffering even more with even less control over their destiny.


:this:

It's at 1500k - not even a drop in the ocean, but certainly impressive in its own way, nonetheless!

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 16:10 
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Cavey wrote:
It's near-impossible to keep up tbh; one minute the Greeks have "caved in on most points" and then, apparently, mere hours later, are wishing plagues of locusts on their EU Creditors, or something. I think it's fairly clear to all concerned that this Socialist Greek administration is a complete laughing stock. Would you "lend" untold further billions to that shower, and ever expect to see so much as a single cent in interest or capital repayment that isn't itself part and parcel of yet another "bailout" set of Russian Doll loans?

At this rate, give it another 20 years, the Greeks will end up owing more dosh than the combined GDP of USA and China...


To be fair, chap, they came into power with the mandate that they weren’t going to accept being ridiculously punished in a way that other shitbasket countries like Ireland and Portugal weren’t, so they could do nothing but stick to that. Then, when they started talking compromise, the Troika appeared to give them rope to hang themselves with, and then got all pissy when Syriza said they’d have to put it to a referendum. The Greek government are in an impossible position and the EU (for which, in this context, read “Germany”) have been acting like vindictive twats.

You had it right before – they really need to just rip the band-aid off and leave the Euro and default on their loans. Mass default has been done before with relatively little long term damage (is it Argentina I’m thinking of?).

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 02, 2015 16:21 
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Oh yeah, sure. Don't worry, I haven't changed any of my views on that score; clearly the options are either massive write-down or default/Euro exit/devaluation. Obviously. :)

I'm just thinking the execution/handling isn't all that it could've been, to say the least - not exactly what you'd call professional, and more importantly, entirely muddled in terms of objectives/direction.

Edit - yeah, Argentina has variously defaulted and, whilst the economy grew significantly a few years back post the last big default (2001?) they're now mired again and probably going to default again. But, this is likely due to appalling ongoing standards of governance and its politics rather than the last default per se.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:32 
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Naz Shah has a pop in the Commons

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 08, 2015 17:32 
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Gah. Not often I find myself in full agreement with a Labour MP, but this is one such occasion... The phrase 'archetypal swivel eyed loon' springs to mind.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:07 
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Cavey wrote:
Gah. Not often I find myself in full agreement with a Labour MP, but this is one such occasion... The phrase 'archetypal swivel eyed loon' springs to mind.


His big posters are still up around Bradford. And his "legal challenge" to the result never materialised. His behaviour was terrible in the election, good luck, London...

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 9:15 
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Greece has spent irresponsibly no question, but there should be some question as to how they can pay it back.

Their debt is huge and they have tiny exports

Lots of talk about punishment, but I've seen little evidence that banks have had any of this

The internal bank lending rate is 0% in the EU so why is Greece been made to pay any interest at all? Simply to refinance the banking industry.

They should not be let of the hook, but sensible payment terms should be put in place over 20-30 years with little or no interest. Greece also needs to grow up as a state and implement taxes and sensible spending.

If they pull out of the EU then they will still require Billions as I doubt they could function financially without help.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:22 
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MaliA wrote:
His behaviour was terrible in the election, good luck, London...


We might be Boris dumb, but we're not Galloway dumb.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 10:25 
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asfish wrote:
The internal bank lending rate is 0% in the EU so why is Greece been made to pay any interest at all? Simply to refinance the banking industry.

They should not be let of the hook, but sensible payment terms should be put in place over 20-30 years with little or no interest.


If you want someone to lend you money, you have to make it attractive to them. Greek debt has massive interest rates attached because it's risky as all hell.

"Can I borrow a tenner? There's a really good chance I'll never pay it back"

Why would anyone risk lending money to Greece if the interest rates didn't make it worth the risk?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Jul 09, 2015 13:25 
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Cras wrote:
MaliA wrote:
His behaviour was terrible in the election, good luck, London...


We might be Boris dumb, but we're not Galloway dumb.


Oh god I hope you're right.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:23 
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It's not really politics, not modern politics anyway, but The Sun once again demonstrate how they're the lowest arse-scraping of humanity. As someone who really doesn't care for the Queen, even I think this is the biggest pile of purile bullshit ever.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sat Jul 18, 2015 14:31 
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Quote:
but The Sun once again demonstrate how they're the lowest arse-scraping of humanity. As someone who really doesn't care for the Queen, even I think this is the biggest pile of purile bullshit ever.


Not sure why they even bothered, its well known that Edward VIII was a fan of the Nazis, thats been done to death already. Wonder who they got the footage from, its very old and private.

Its also from 1933 , Hitler had just come to power in Germany and I would guess most people thought the salute quite funny at that point.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 14:36 
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Worth noting that at the weekend Cavey admitted it's all a sham and he's actually a hardline left winger with a subscription to Socialist Worker.

;)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 15:04 
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That would explain why he's so bad at making compelling arguments for right-wing policies ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2015 16:07 
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Shush. What goes on tour stays on tour! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 15:34 
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PM blames segregation in Bradford for breeding of extreme views. Well, this is going to be opening a can of worms and no mistake.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2015 16:09 
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He's probably spot on that there are communities there that are almost entirely from the same non-white background - there are in Birmingham too.

What's far more open to debate is why this segregation has occurred, and what the effects of it are.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:35 
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So then, looks like that "Corbyn bloke" has opened up a massive lead in the Labour leadership race, apparently polling fully 43% of first preference votes....?

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/20 ... d-new-poll

From my perspective, simply unbelievable, but very welcome. I've said for the last decade that (New) Labour have totally lacked a coherent (or indeed any) political ideology or narrative, but never in my wildest fantasies did even I envisage this, a return to 1970s Socialism that served them and this fine country so well last time out, right up to when the UK became the first industrialised power ever to have to go to the IMF with begging bowl in hand. If I know anything about politics and/or the British electorate (Scotland excepted), and I mean ANYTHING at all, they will never, ever vote this guy in - he makes Millipede look like an imperious, unstoppable Prime Minister in waiting. Even by Labour's standards, my flabber is well and truly ghasted - schism and disintegration ahoy at this rate, I'd say.

The Tories and their supporters will be rubbing their hands with glee, unbelieving in their sheer, blind luck at first having the SNP gift them a majority government despite a pretty hopeless Tory campaign and own goals on the whole TV debate thing, and now this - the imminent vacation of the middle ground, no less. Even the Lib Dems have elected an old school lefty as leader about as far removed from the new political zeitgeist and relevance to 2015 UK/world politics as is possible to imagine. "The crowded centre ground" just became an empty oasis ripe for the taking, a fact that even Osborne seems to have grasped. No wonder why Blair is a bit pissed about it all.

Unbe-flipping-lievable.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 10:51 
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Labour have to go left. They've spent the last 10 years being "Like the Tories, but just a bit more lost and confused about it all", and that's just not an electable place to be. Sure, they'll lose some centrist support, but that's the cost of party politics - you can't be everything to everyone. Look at the welfare bill - abstentions across the board, showing that in opposition they've got less teeth than a stripped gear. They have to stand for something, and that something can't be Tory Lite.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:03 
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Cras wrote:
Labour have to go left. They've spent the last 10 years being "Like the Tories, but just a bit more lost and confused about it all", and that's just not an electable place to be. Sure, they'll lose some centrist support, but that's the cost of party politics - you can't be everything to everyone. Look at the welfare bill - abstentions across the board, showing that in opposition they've got less teeth than a stripped gear. They have to stand for something, and that something can't be Tory Lite.


Well, the fact that New Labour won three successive elections on just such a manifesto would tend to disagree with your analysis, Cras? They even stuck rigidly to Tory spending plans throughout their first parliament (as per their concrete manifesto pledge to do so), as Blair knew full well that this was the only way the British electorate would ever trust his party again. (The prior deletion of 'Clause 4' was also very much part of the root-and-branch makeover)

New Labour was, or at least started out as being, very much 'Tory lite' on this basis, it could be argued, and undeniably successful it was in electoral terms, too, as a result.

I don't disagree with you about their lack of teeth and the utter shambles upon which they now find themselves in over the Welfare Bill, but as I've said and foretold for a decade, that's what happens when you don't even have a core ideology that everyone within a broad church that is a political party can sign up to. If you don't even have that, then I would say you're not a political party at all, merely a loose collective whose cynical, vapid purpose is the naked pursuit of power for its own sake, which is always going to be unstable long term. As, I believe, we're about to find out.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:24 
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I don't think there is a chance in hell that Corbyn will win the next election but then I don't think that promising to behave just like a bunch of sodding Tories would either. However from what little I have learned about him he seems like a decent, sincere human being and I think that he would serve to widen the debate, something that is desperately needed.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:28 
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markg wrote:
I don't think there is a chance in hell that Corbyn will win the next election but then I don't think that promising to behave just like a bunch of sodding Tories would either. However from what little I have learned about him he seems like a decent, sincere human being and I think that he would serve to widen the debate, something that is desperately needed.


Oh certainly Mark, seems like a thoroughly decent guy from what I've seen and heard, refreshingly straight-talking as well. At least he believes in something, and that sincerity and clear sense of purpose so derived always shines through. Always.

Upon reflection, on that basis at least, he's surely head and shoulders above the other three candidates, in this specific respect. It would be great to have a debate with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:41 
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While I personally can't fathom how 'the electorate' think, I wonder how a Labour shift to the left will affect the centrist thinking. If you're not predisposed towards a lefty ideology a lot of Tory policy can be presented as logical, straightforward thinking (I certainly think so).

As an aside I like the proposed benefit caps. If you're not earning a wage enough to support a family by yourself, don't think you can shit out as many kids as you like and have the state pick up the tab to keep you housed and fed. If you can't afford a family you shouldn't start one, much like I wouldn't buy myself an expensive car I couldn't afford and expect the government to help me with the payments. Since you can't appeal to people and say 'hey look, could you not have so many kids?', once again the government has to disincentive behaviour by limiting the cash taken from the pockets of those that do pay. It isn't evil - its downright sensible.

Corbyn has played the shrewd move by decisively voting against the reforms and being the only candidate to do so. I imagine Labour would rather have a leader that doesn't seem a middling abstainer.

I see the SNP are continuing their cunty lack of respect for Westminster by sitting in opposition-reserved seats insisting that their little gaggle is 'the only true opposition'. The one thing you can rely on them to be is obstinately anti-Tory regardless of the merits or facts of a given debate. Fucking wankers. As Cavey said such a predictable response is easily manipulated and we'll no doubt see more of that in times to come.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:50 
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The problem though, EBG, is that it certainly isn't the fault of those kids that their parents made bad life choices and decisions, but they're being punished nonetheless. I'm an unashamed Tory in economic terms as you know, but this rests uneasily with me, very uneasily. To the extent that I think it's plain (morally) wrong, we should be better than that, there must be other ways to handle the situation.

I'm sure there's a way to start getting a handle on spiraling welfare costs without penalising these hapless kids, and there must be far more worthy candidates in public expenditure for trimming down instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:53 
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Cavey wrote:
The problem though, EBG, is that it certainly isn't the fault of those kids that their parents made bad life choices and decisions, but they're being punished nonetheless.


And that hits the nail on the head. Dumb parents have too many kids, it's the kids who suffer when there isn't enough money to keep them fed. And there's not really much you can do about that.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:57 
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Cras wrote:
Cavey wrote:
The problem though, EBG, is that it certainly isn't the fault of those kids that their parents made bad life choices and decisions, but they're being punished nonetheless.


And that hits the nail on the head. Dumb parents have too many kids, it's the kids who suffer when there isn't enough money to keep them fed. And there's not really much you can do about that.


Can't we use non transferable food, milk and fresh fruit vouchers, clothes vouchers, quality child care and nursery vouchers and the like as part of the mix, that can only be used to directly benefit the kids? (I'm not trying to be controversial btw)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:03 
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Well you can, but then you have to ask yourself what problem you're trying to fix. If you're trying to cut the welfare bill, that won't help. If you're trying to address the idea that parents spend child support on booze and fags, well that will/may help, but isn't the core point of why the benefits cap was proposed.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:03 
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Cras wrote:
Cavey wrote:
The problem though, EBG, is that it certainly isn't the fault of those kids that their parents made bad life choices and decisions, but they're being punished nonetheless.


And that hits the nail on the head. Dumb parents have too many kids, it's the kids who suffer when there isn't enough money to keep them fed. And there's not really much you can do about that.


Work out how much money it costs per child. This is threshold value.
at age of 14, assess each child's future earning potential.
Remove and freeze appropriate number of eggs and sterilise the child.
Once income threshold is met, allow foetus to be grown by surrogate.
Repeat once further thresholds met.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:03 
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My parents had four kids, which seems like too many these days. I can tell you that we never lined up for any special benefits - just a pretty meagre Family Allowance. Only my dad worked. They owned their home but they were always in an overdraft, and we were always told as kids that we were poor and couldn't afford much. I was told I'd need to work and save my pocket money if I wanted to buy anything big, but my folks did the best they could and they didn't presume it was anyone else's responsibility to pay for us.

I struggle to sympathise with people that have chosen to have lots of kids without any means to pay for them, and might possibly now find themselves with even less free cash as a result. 'Won't somebody please think of the children!' is all very well as an argument but it just provides an excuse to never introduce a disincentive that is already overdue. £20k is still a decent amount of money, more than some people who do actually work with kids get. More importantly anyone who chooses to pop out a kid now without a job will have to consider if they can afford it on a reduced handout, and so they might decide against it.

We could argue for days about ultimately who is responsible. Can you blame a person who has been poorly educated for their poor decisions? Is it their fault they didn't try harder to learn? Do we blame their parents for failing to adequately educate and support them during state education? How can they know better if they don't have the mental faculty for it? And so forth. Ultimately the state is eventually blamed for everything and everyone else shirks personal responsibility for themselves and their dependants.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:04 
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I seem to remember starting a WoS thread with the proposal of mandatory reversible sterilisation until people gain 'parental responsibility qualifications' once. Good times.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:06 
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Cras wrote:
I seem to remember starting a WoS thread with the proposal of mandatory reversible sterilisation until people gain 'parental responsibility qualifications' once. Good times.


In fairness, it is the previous generation that have bought these scrounging lack wits into the world. Thank you baby boomers! Did your borstal, corporeal punishment and national service help you be better parents?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:08 
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Cavey wrote:
markg wrote:
I don't think there is a chance in hell that Corbyn will win the next election but then I don't think that promising to behave just like a bunch of sodding Tories would either. However from what little I have learned about him he seems like a decent, sincere human being and I think that he would serve to widen the debate, something that is desperately needed.


Oh certainly Mark, seems like a thoroughly decent guy from what I've seen and heard, refreshingly straight-talking as well. At least he believes in something, and that sincerity and clear sense of purpose so derived always shines through. Always.

Upon reflection, on that basis at least, he's surely head and shoulders above the other three candidates. It would be great to have a debate with him.


I would agree with that.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:21 
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Cavey wrote:

Can't we use non transferable food, milk and fresh fruit vouchers, clothes vouchers, quality child care and nursery vouchers and the like as part of the mix, that can only be used to directly benefit the kids? (I'm not trying to be controversial btw)


This would work to a point, but mainly benefit supermarkets, I doubt these could be used at a local market or an aldi, where the food is a lot cheaper.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:36 
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Cras wrote:
Well you can, but then you have to ask yourself what problem you're trying to fix. If you're trying to cut the welfare bill, that won't help. If you're trying to address the idea that parents spend child support on booze and fags, well that will/may help, but isn't the core point of why the benefits cap was proposed.


Sure. Well, the problem *I* would be trying to fix would be the "booze, fags, widescreen Sky TV whilst the kids go without and eat crap" one, not just spending less and everyone (including the completely blameless) suffering. Very long term, this means healthier, better educated kids and then adults, which (incidentally) very much would reduce dependency and costs in the long term, as well as being far more morally equitable, but that's another story I guess.

In terms of saving costs short term, yes something has to be done/we can't carry on the way we have been doing, but in this IT age it seems to me we could be going about it all a lot smarter than we apparently are.

(I do take EBG's point about blaming everyone and ultimately the State itself, but you know, we have to start/draw the line somewhere, as imperfect as that might be)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:38 
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KovacsC wrote:
Cavey wrote:

Can't we use non transferable food, milk and fresh fruit vouchers, clothes vouchers, quality child care and nursery vouchers and the like as part of the mix, that can only be used to directly benefit the kids? (I'm not trying to be controversial btw)


This would work to a point, but mainly benefit supermarkets, I doubt these could be used at a local market or an aldi, where the food is a lot cheaper.


I can't see why we couldn't have vouchers accepted by anyone Kov, from corner shop all the way up to the big supermarkets, Aldi & Co included (and have home deliveries as well for that matter)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2015 12:38 
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Cras wrote:
I seem to remember starting a WoS thread with the proposal of mandatory reversible sterilisation until people gain 'parental responsibility qualifications' once. Good times.


Seriously? Blimey. :o

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