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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 19:43 
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ugvm'er at heart...

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In the EU, there is no downside to being in and only frothing cybernats would argue otherwise. It reminds me of another recent vote...


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 19:59 
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Gogmagog

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In Europe, but out of the Euro. Advantages are far too many to be out.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 20:40 
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When the coming EU in/out debate begins in earnest it'll be an interesting time, because I'm completely ambivalent about it. If a referendum does happen in 2017 I have absolutely no idea how I'd vote yet. That's palpably exciting.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Wed Oct 22, 2014 20:56 
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Sleepyhead

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MaliA wrote:
In Europe, but out of the Euro. Advantages are far too many to be out.


Definitely out of the Euro. Using a currency you have no control of has proven to be a bad idea in areas where there are many competing ideologies in many different areas, all coming in and out of power at different times.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 4:33 

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 7:32 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
When the coming EU in/out debate begins in earnest it'll be an interesting time, because I'm completely ambivalent about it. If a referendum does happen in 2017 I have absolutely no idea how I'd vote yet. That's palpably exciting.



Problem for me with this is that I never see anything positive as to why the UK should remain. All the news is on what a gravy train the parliament is as well as perceived interference on UK laws.

You do have to ask yourself why, a recent one was that hoovers will have to be a certain wattage. Totally trivial in that you buy a hoover every 5 years or more, still I can't help thinking who decided this and what for.

The UK doesn't help the perception in that we apply every crackpot rule and law, a lot of the smaller EU member states ignore what doesn't suit them.

Then immigration, not sure this is the EU's fault. There are 100's of people at Calais who I guess have travelled through the EU to get there. They are camped out trying to get into the UK. We should ask why they don't want to stay in France and was is attracting people here. If its true that the UK is a soft benefits target they we should change this. We must pay out more or make it easier that France if all those people are trying to get here.


I don't see any obvious benefits, we appear to put up with all the rules, but we don't get any benefits especially the social ones they have in the EU on holidays and employment rights.

I'm like you at this point re a vote completely ambivalent.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:07 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
When the coming EU in/out debate begins in earnest it'll be an interesting time, because I'm completely ambivalent about it. If a referendum does happen in 2017 I have absolutely no idea how I'd vote yet. That's palpably exciting.



I don't know how I'd vote either. Free movement of goods and people across the continent is an outstanding acheivement and we should never give up on that. Moreover, EU membership encourages the central and eastern countires to reform and feel part of the 'club', especially at a time when the Russian bear is getting restless. A NATO for civil life.

Yet, at the same time, I perceive the EU institutions as distant, remote, bureaucratic, and corrupt. It's tricky to uncover exactly which powers are held by which bodies, which are reserved to the member countries, and which are shared. It's extremely difficult to identify who is responsible for what, and when policy comes in, often years after it was first suggested and approved, mroe or less impossible to overturn. The complex, secretive nature makes it a boon for lobbysists and insiders, but excludes the rest. This is the ideal environment for corruption. To me, all this goes against what I consider a key principle of good governance: it is utterly unclear who is responsible for something, how to influence them, and how to kick them out.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:24 
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Kern wrote:
ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
When the coming EU in/out debate begins in earnest it'll be an interesting time, because I'm completely ambivalent about it. If a referendum does happen in 2017 I have absolutely no idea how I'd vote yet. That's palpably exciting.



I don't know how I'd vote either. Free movement of goods and people across the continent is an outstanding acheivement and we should never give up on that. Moreover, EU membership encourages the central and eastern countires to reform and feel part of the 'club', especially at a time when the Russian bear is getting restless. A NATO for civil life.

Yet, at the same time, I perceive the EU institutions as distant, remote, bureaucratic, and corrupt. It's tricky to uncover exactly which powers are held by which bodies, which are reserved to the member countries, and which are shared. It's extremely difficult to identify who is responsible for what, and when policy comes in, often years after it was first suggested and approved, mroe or less impossible to overturn. The complex, secretive nature makes it a boon for lobbysists and insiders, but excludes the rest. This is the ideal environment for corruption. To me, all this goes against what I consider a key principle of good governance: it is utterly unclear who is responsible for something, how to influence them, and how to kick them out.


The fact they have never balanced the books from a budget perspective is pretty bad, they are just not accountable to anyone. Even the UK doesn't really complain about this, aside from Farage bringing it up, which is laughable as he is part of it!


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 9:35 
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The accounts sign-off issue is deeply concerning, and I've yet to find a satisfactory explanation for it.

The simple answer to the accountability and transparency issues is to go all the way and have a proper United States of Europe with a readable constitution and an elected executive and legislature. But I really do not think there would be much popular support for this amongst the people of Europe, who tend to vote the wrong way in rare referendums on treaty changes, and no country's government would agree to such a loss of their power to Brussells.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:01 
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Hearthly wrote:
And yet then there's ZOMG EMPIRICAL WOTSITS


Yeah, yeah.
Sorry, you're very much in that "pouting 8 year old camp" I alluded to earlier, so I'll be brief (since as I've said, I've finally realised I cannot be arsed trying to reason with close-minded idiots). Mock as much as you like with your sardonic language, but them pesky facts just bring you down every time. It doesn't matter how much you snipe at it, the fact remains the UK is the fastest growing developed economy. Period. Fact. Empirical fact. "The best kind of correct". No amount of snarking from you, or anyone else is going to change this beautiful, empirical fact so much as one iota. Deal with it. :smug:

You take the Gaywood approach to debate whereby just because you can impotently pick holes at the periphery of something (e.g. tax receipts have only risen slightly from last year, ignoring the fact that they're a damn sight fucking better than in 2008-10 and in any case, unemployment has plummeted, inflation is low and growth is inarguable etc etc), that means you've somehow proven some amazing point and "won" the argument.

Sorry to have to point this out mate, you haven't. You may as well try the markg cunt-calling option for size.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:27 
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I was annoyed at you the other week for celebrating with glee at the apparent end of "benefits culture" which is some straight out of the Daily Mail bullshit and is what prompted that comment. Also you went off at me specifically at the point where I pointed out that the Tories were only very briefly ahead in the polls after they announced a tax break (and all that stupid, populist bullshit about the Human Rights Act). This was what you had predicated your jubilation upon. I then went on to say that it actually looks too close to call at the next election. But, no, anything other than your analysis that it was a dead certainty of Tory victory in the next election could only be the conclusion of someone blind to the facts and definitely not a cool-headed, dispassionate view like yours.

I'm acutely aware that I shouldn't have fallen for your blatant trolling and button-pushing that day (and don't even bother trying to deny it) but there you go, you got a rise out of me. Can't be bothered any more, though. I've seen it too many times before now, trolling people one minute and then calling them "mate" the next, really can't be fucked with it any more.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:31 
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Hello Hello Hello

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Cavey wrote:

You take the Gaywood approach to debate whereby just because you can impotently pick holes at the periphery of something (e.g. tax receipts have only risen slightly from last year, ignoring the fact that they're a damn sight fucking better than in 2008-10 and in any case, unemployment has plummeted, inflation is low and growth is inarguable etc etc), that means you've somehow proven some amazing point and "won" the argument.


It's not a peripheral point though, in any proper recovery wages increase and tax receipts increase, and neither are happening in this case. (Or at least, they're so small as to be negligible, and inflation may be low but wage growth is even lower, so in real terms people are getting poorer. And the government's borrowing more because they have to pay so many benefits and tax credits to people who are earning fuck all.)

Quote:
If people don’t earn, they don’t pay tax – and Treasury receipts are falling way below forecast – needing higher tax or deeper cuts to fill the gap. The rising numbers in self-employment are among the non-taxpayers, not budding entrepreneurs but earning an average £10,000, mini-cab driver their most frequent occupation.

Another set of OBR figures this week should set the Treasury shuddering, showing that the benefit cap, trumpeted by George Osborne as his trap for Labour, will be burst. Low pay means many more poverty incomes have to be topped up with extra tax credits. Now add in the government’s disastrous housing policies – and three decades of successive governments’ failure to build council houses – and those pigeons have come home to roost in the Treasury.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... nances-tax


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:32 
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Since the media became aware of the concept of 'trolling' the word is now one of the most misused of the human race.

'He disagreed with me and is therefore a blatant troll'.

'He called me a twat and is therefore trolling'.

'Harsher jail terms for trolls'.

I mean, really, it's fucking ridiculous.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:34 
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On a forum I have always taken it to mean making posts that are primarily intended to get a rise out of people rather than to start or contribute to a debate.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:36 
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Politics will always get a rise out of people who disagree with the point, whether it's intended or not. If Cavey is indeed a troll then he's putting a fantastic amount of effort in.

Also I totally agree with what EBG said.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:38 
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I wouldn't characterise him as a troll, like how someone can act like a dickhead without actually being one.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:40 
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Also how can a word with such a vague definition be "the most misused of the human race"?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:43 
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Grim... wrote:
Also I totally agree with what EBG said.

This is blatant trolling right here :hat:

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:52 
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I sometimes worry that Twitter is creating a nasty atmosphere in politics. Seems everytime someone says or does something, a chorus of disapproval goes up, but in 140 characters you really can't discuss nuanced or complicated issues and instead just react to short excerpts. The general response is a scream of 'we don't like X, ban it!'. So, er, ban Twitter.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:58 
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Grim... wrote:
Politics will always get a rise out of people who disagree with the point, whether it's intended or not.


Eh; as with any argument or discussion you can present your points in any number of ways and some ways of doing it will just piss people off to the degree that the likelihood of any genuine discussion goes right out the window. There's nothing special or different about political conversations in that regard.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 10:59 
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markg wrote:
I wouldn't characterise him as a troll, like how someone can act like a dickhead without actually being one.


Oh well, that's something at least. I'm taking it. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:03 
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Kern wrote:
I sometimes worry that Twitter is creating a nasty atmosphere in politics. Seems everytime someone says or does something, a chorus of disapproval goes up, but in 140 characters you really can't discuss nuanced or complicated issues and instead just react to short excerpts. The general response is a scream of 'we don't like X, ban it!'. So, er, ban Twitter.


I don't do Twitter and thus don't really get it, but it's this very aspect that's always made me wonder why it's taken seriously as a forum for anything. It's bizarre ubiquity has meant that everyone has just accepted the character limitation and are now cramming debates into these tiny little text squirts as if it wasn't a fucking insane thing to do. Looking at it from the outside makes all the participants look like delusional mentallists.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:19 
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...... ANYWAY, tedious troll-calling and character assassination aside, the EU then?

I'm with Kern, basically. Very well put.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 11:24 
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Cavey wrote:
Very well put.

:this:

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:17 
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On the EU thing, I was impressed by just how many things in asfish' post were spectacularly wrong.

Like the idea that asylum seekers at Calais are all skipping through country after country, just because the UK is a supposed soft touch.

This despite France, Italy, Sweden and Germany all accepting more asylum seekers than the UK.

The laws for non-EU nationals emigrating to the UK are completely under our own government control, and we are actually more harsh and more selective than a lot of other countries. Even the Daily Mail has moved on to worrying about EU immigration instead.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 12:28 
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markg is the resident Daily Mail expert; I feel we need his input on this. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 14:38 
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Hearthly wrote:
Cavey wrote:

You take the Gaywood approach to debate whereby just because you can impotently pick holes at the periphery of something (e.g. tax receipts have only risen slightly from last year, ignoring the fact that they're a damn sight fucking better than in 2008-10 and in any case, unemployment has plummeted, inflation is low and growth is inarguable etc etc), that means you've somehow proven some amazing point and "won" the argument.


It's not a peripheral point though, in any proper recovery wages increase and tax receipts increase, and neither are happening in this case. (Or at least, they're so small as to be negligible, and inflation may be low but wage growth is even lower, so in real terms people are getting poorer. And the government's borrowing more because they have to pay so many benefits and tax credits to people who are earning fuck all.)

Quote:
If people don’t earn, they don’t pay tax – and Treasury receipts are falling way below forecast – needing higher tax or deeper cuts to fill the gap. The rising numbers in self-employment are among the non-taxpayers, not budding entrepreneurs but earning an average £10,000, mini-cab driver their most frequent occupation.

Another set of OBR figures this week should set the Treasury shuddering, showing that the benefit cap, trumpeted by George Osborne as his trap for Labour, will be burst. Low pay means many more poverty incomes have to be topped up with extra tax credits. Now add in the government’s disastrous housing policies – and three decades of successive governments’ failure to build council houses – and those pigeons have come home to roost in the Treasury.


http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfre ... nances-tax


I haven't really got the time for this constant moving-of-goalposts and widening/straw manning of the debate (ergo, where precisely did I say this was a *perfect* recovery, in *every single respect* and/or there have been no losers, no shrinking of incomes in real terms etc.

However, you might be interested to note that in Germany, real terms wages shrank for years throughout the 2000s, as they reformed their economy and hitherto ludicrously over unionised, socially democratic labour practices:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/10/ ... VM20121029

Quote:
The wage archives office calculated that between 2001 and 2009, German real wages shrank by 6.3 percent, making it the only country in Europe without growth.

After record levels of unemployment, which peaked in 2005, labour market reforms boosted competitiveness and helped cut joblessness to its lowest since reunification.

The same has not been true of the wider euro zone, where rising wages consistently outpaced German pay rises, fuelling the economic divergence that is a sub-plot of Europe's debt crisis.


Funny how despite being mocked by your pals within the Labour government at this time ("old fashioned German economy" etc.), they're now the powerhouse of Europe, huh. Do you people EVER stop to consider, less still question why actual stuff actually happens, and/or question your own ideologies and belief systems as a result?

For someone like me, who would become the biggest Communist on the forum within a millisecond, if I actually thought that would work and there was decent empirical evidence to suggest this - it's all just so weird and perplexing. How very odd, a bit like football supporters I suppose.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 14:50 
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Cavey wrote:
For someone like me, who would become the biggest Communist on the forum within a millisecond, if I actually thought that would work and there was decent empirical evidence to suggest this - it's all just so weird and perplexing. How very odd, a bit like football supporters I suppose.

I think the problem is in the belief that you can, if not win them over, at least talk to a person about the objective aspects of your opinion and have them give some kind of partial, qualified agreement.

You think you're being perfectly reasonable but come up against immovable brick walls that insist you're wrong wrong wrong. You've offered discussion and possible compromise to people who have rigid opinions that logic won't alter. It's easier to call you a far right Tory because that puts you in a handy straw-man box so that their brain doesn't have to stretch against the possibility that it's not quite so simple.

If the GamerGate thread is anything to go by, this forum is filled with such people.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 14:52 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Cavey wrote:
For someone like me, who would become the biggest Communist on the forum within a millisecond, if I actually thought that would work and there was decent empirical evidence to suggest this - it's all just so weird and perplexing. How very odd, a bit like football supporters I suppose.

I think the problem is in the belief that you can, if not win them over, at least talk to a person about the objective aspects of your opinion and have them give some kind of partial, qualified agreement.

You think you're being perfectly reasonable but come up against immovable brick walls that insist you're wrong wrong wrong. You've offered discussion and possible compromise to people who have rigid opinions that logic won't alter. It's easier to call you a far right Tory because that puts you in a handy straw-man box so that their brain doesn't have to stretch against the possibility it's not quite so simple.

If the GamerGate thread is anything to go by, this forum is filled with such people.


:this:

Once again mate, I'm forced to agree. :(

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 14:56 
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This is also why I found it impossible to debate with cybernats. They wouldn't give an inch, and if you made even the smallest concession about anything they'd just use it as a rod to beat you with in the ongoing argument. Makes it much easier to simply entrench deeply in your ideology and refuse to talk to anyone that doesn't absolutely agree. Less intellectually valid but so much less frustrating.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 15:37 
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Did you know that the incidence of "straw man" has increased a kegiligion since this thread was introduced?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 15:46 
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Saturnalian wrote:
Did you know that the incidence of "straw man" has increased a kegiligion since this thread was introduced?


I don't doubt it; perhaps people should stick to what their opponents have actually said and claimed, rather than ascribe a whole bunch of other stuff to them that they never said at all, and then take them to task over it. (Or for that matter, claim that stuff they've posted, either generally or even specifically in response to someone else entirely, was actually intended to "push their buttons" - which is actually quite worrying)

EBG is right; this forum, never far from being stupidly left-leaning as an unfortunate :attitude: legacy issue, but at least hitherto open to debate - is now pretty much an uber-PC, ultralefty, ultrafeminist, teatime revolutionary echo chamber. If you don't subscribe to such ludicrous views you're a "troll", a trouble maker or whatever; even those with whom I've been able to do business with in the past here are no longer receptive and/or are spouting the same totally uncompromising drivel.

It's sad, but that's people for you I guess. They get inflexible as they get older; views become more entrenched. Most here are now older than I was when the "old man" of WoS in my mid-30s at that time, back in the day.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 15:55 
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Well, you're right about one thing... it *is* teatime.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 16:04 
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I don't have anyone on my 'foe' list. My psyche is not so fragile that the very sight of a post of someone I disagree with is too much for me to cope with.

Much more robust than the 'fingers-in-ears' defence others seem so proud of.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 16:08 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
I don't have anyone on my 'foe' list. My psyche is not so fragile that the very sight of a post of someone I disagree with is too much for me to cope with.

Much more robust than the 'fingers-in-ears' defence others seem so proud of.


I agree; I guess it's all part of growing up, and growing a pair.
Boasting that you can't read what someone's posted always seemed somewhat self-defeating to me (and frankly a bit embarrassing).

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 16:37 
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Curiosity wrote:
On the EU thing, I was impressed by just how many things in asfish' post were spectacularly wrong.

Like the idea that asylum seekers at Calais are all skipping through country after country, just because the UK is a supposed soft touch.

This despite France, Italy, Sweden and Germany all accepting more asylum seekers than the UK.

The laws for non-EU nationals emigrating to the UK are completely under our own government control, and we are actually more harsh and more selective than a lot of other countries. Even the Daily Mail has moved on to worrying about EU immigration instead.


Things?? You have only quoted one and even then you assume its from the Daily Mail.

I read it here http://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/

There are thousands of people there, last time I looked France wasn't sharing its borders with any none EU states aside from Switzerland so I would guess these people have travelled through several places to camp in Calais.

So if they don't want to settle in France and the next landmass in a forward direction is the UK where would you suggest they want to go?

The UK accepted 3000 more asylum seekers in 2013 than Italy did, the rest of your figures are correct. So your not spectacularly wrong just a little wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 16:40 
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Ireland?


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 16:47 
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DavPaz wrote:
Ireland?



That's a long time to hide under a lorry but I guess you could get there!


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 16:47 
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Cavey wrote:
EBG is right; this forum, never far from being stupidly left-leaning as an unfortunate :attitude: legacy issue, but at least hitherto open to debate - is now pretty much an uber-PC, ultralefty, ultrafeminist, teatime revolutionary echo chamber. If you don't subscribe to such ludicrous views you're a "troll", a trouble maker or whatever; even those with whom I've been able to do business with in the past here are no longer receptive and/or are spouting the same totally uncompromising drivel.


So there was a very small amount of people you could talk to before and now you can't even talk to those people. Why are you still here talking then? And I honestly don't mean that as a rhetorical invitation to leave, I'm left genuinely wondering why? If it's as pointless and miserable an experience as you've been saying for the last few pages of this thread then why would you carry on? Why would anyone? Unless you're some kind of forum masochist. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 16:57 
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I've said this before; some of us don't just seek out internet havens where everyone else agrees with you. With no self-congratulatory ego to stroke I can't think of anything more boring. Only speaking for myself there.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 17:03 
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Bamba wrote:
Cavey wrote:
EBG is right; this forum, never far from being stupidly left-leaning as an unfortunate :attitude: legacy issue, but at least hitherto open to debate - is now pretty much an uber-PC, ultralefty, ultrafeminist, teatime revolutionary echo chamber. If you don't subscribe to such ludicrous views you're a "troll", a trouble maker or whatever; even those with whom I've been able to do business with in the past here are no longer receptive and/or are spouting the same totally uncompromising drivel.


So there was a very small amount of people you could talk to before and now you can't even talk to those people. Why are you still here talking then? And I honestly don't mean that as a rhetorical invitation to leave, I'm left genuinely wondering why? If it's as pointless and miserable an experience as you've been saying for the last few pages of this thread then why would you carry on? Why would anyone? Unless you're some kind of forum masochist. ;)


Sorry to disappoint, but as EBG says, some of us welcome the chance to have our views challenged, indeed ripped to pieces on occasion. That's what actually helps to fashion those views over time.

Plus, y'know, I like being here, or at least I used to. It's hard to let go of something you've been part of, and people you've known, for 10 years or more.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 17:04 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
I've said this before; some of us don't just seek out internet havens where everyone else agrees with you. With no self-congratulatory ego to stroke I can't think of anything more boring. Only speaking for myself there.


Except it's not what Cavey said. His post there said "even those with whom I've been able to do business with in the past here are no longer receptive" i.e. there's no one left he can even debate with.

I actually thought that was pretty clear but as there's no way you'd have purposely misrepresented it just so you could post a pile of smug self-congratulatory nonsense yourself I can only assume I somehow didn't explain it very well. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 17:10 
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Cavey wrote:
Sorry to disappoint, but as EBG says, some of us welcome the chance to have our views challenged, indeed ripped to pieces on occasion.


Doesn't that contradict your previous post bemoaning the fact that there's no one left here you can 'do business with'? Both these things can't be true.


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 17:16 
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Bamba wrote:
I actually thought that was pretty clear but as there's no way you'd have purposely misrepresented it just so you could post a pile of smug self-congratulatory nonsense yourself I can only assume I somehow didn't explain it very well. :)

Cavey's sentiment is a little more depressing than mine, although I agree - he thought there were people worthy of genuine debate here but over time it has transpired that there probably isn't. There isn't too much value in just flinging unreconcilably opposing views at someone else when neither one will be convinced or moved in either direction.

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 17:17 
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Bamba wrote:
Cavey wrote:
Sorry to disappoint, but as EBG says, some of us welcome the chance to have our views challenged, indeed ripped to pieces on occasion.


Doesn't that contradict your previous post bemoaning the fact that there's no one left here you can 'do business with'? Both these things can't be true.


Fuck sake. I didn't even say there was NO ONE I could 'do business with', your words, not mine (again). I merely had specific individuals in mind who hitherto, in years past, have had reasonably mainstream, moderate views but have now hardened considerably, but I clearly do still have people to debate with, as evidenced by this very thread.

Ok?

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 17:19 
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Having said that I have plenty of time for at least Kern, Curio and Trooper still. Thoughtful musings on subjects where we probably don't agree are still very valuable.

Heck I even have plenty of time for Hearthly when he's talking about Hearthstone, so context matters too. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 17:24 
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Cavey wrote:
Fuck sake. I didn't even say there was NO ONE I could 'do business with', your words, not mine (again).


Yeah, you really did:

Cavey wrote:
even those with whom I've been able to do business with in the past here are no longer receptive and/or are spouting the same totally uncompromising drivel.


You've answered my question though so thanks! :) :kiss:


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 17:24 
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asfish wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
On the EU thing, I was impressed by just how many things in asfish' post were spectacularly wrong.

Like the idea that asylum seekers at Calais are all skipping through country after country, just because the UK is a supposed soft touch.

This despite France, Italy, Sweden and Germany all accepting more asylum seekers than the UK.

The laws for non-EU nationals emigrating to the UK are completely under our own government control, and we are actually more harsh and more selective than a lot of other countries. Even the Daily Mail has moved on to worrying about EU immigration instead.


Things?? You have only quoted one and even then you assume its from the Daily Mail.

I read it here http://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/

There are thousands of people there, last time I looked France wasn't sharing its borders with any none EU states aside from Switzerland so I would guess these people have travelled through several places to camp in Calais.

So if they don't want to settle in France and the next landmass in a forward direction is the UK where would you suggest they want to go?

The UK accepted 3000 more asylum seekers in 2013 than Italy did, the rest of your figures are correct. So your not spectacularly wrong just a little wrong.


All EU states take in non-EU migrants. Sweden takes in shitloads. Are you suggesting that whoever borders non-EU states should take them all in? That seems a bit harsh if you're on the edge of the union!

And none of that changes the fact that the UK's stance on non-EU migrants is entirely the UK's own policy and nothing to do with membership of the EU!

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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 17:34 
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ElephantBanjoGnome wrote:
Heck I even have plenty of time for Hearthly when he's talking about Hearthstone, so context matters too. ;)


Yeah Cavey should deffo start playing Hearthstone :)


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 Post subject: Re: Political Banter and Debate Thread
PostPosted: Thu Oct 23, 2014 17:35 
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Curiosity wrote:
asfish wrote:
Curiosity wrote:
On the EU thing, I was impressed by just how many things in asfish' post were spectacularly wrong.

Like the idea that asylum seekers at Calais are all skipping through country after country, just because the UK is a supposed soft touch.

This despite France, Italy, Sweden and Germany all accepting more asylum seekers than the UK.

The laws for non-EU nationals emigrating to the UK are completely under our own government control, and we are actually more harsh and more selective than a lot of other countries. Even the Daily Mail has moved on to worrying about EU immigration instead.


Things?? You have only quoted one and even then you assume its from the Daily Mail.

I read it here http://calaismigrantsolidarity.wordpress.com/

There are thousands of people there, last time I looked France wasn't sharing its borders with any none EU states aside from Switzerland so I would guess these people have travelled through several places to camp in Calais.

So if they don't want to settle in France and the next landmass in a forward direction is the UK where would you suggest they want to go?

The UK accepted 3000 more asylum seekers in 2013 than Italy did, the rest of your figures are correct. So your not spectacularly wrong just a little wrong.


All EU states take in non-EU migrants. Sweden takes in shitloads. Are you suggesting that whoever borders non-EU states should take them all in? That seems a bit harsh if you're on the edge of the union!

And none of that changes the fact that the UK's stance on non-EU migrants is entirely the UK's own policy and nothing to do with membership of the EU!



No I'm just saying that in getting to France they must have come through a few other EU states, I'm assuming most of them don't have the money for a plane so walk or drive?

As for the UK none EU migrant policy I don't disagree I didn't really know we are tighter than most (which surprises me given how much millage UKIP gets from saying the opposite)


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