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Kickstarter
https://www.beexcellenttoeachother.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=8301
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Author:  Satsuma [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 13:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

I'm surprised these projects are doing so well. I ain't giving my money to none of these things and I can't see that changing in the foreseeable future.











Unless it's for a 360 version of The Last Ninja.

Author:  LewieP [ Wed Nov 28, 2012 14:36 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Interesting piece on RPS about how many kickstarters have delivered what they promised so far, and which have been good at delivering updates.

Author:  metalangel [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 1:59 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Not a good record, is it?

Author:  Dimrill [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 8:11 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

I still stand by my assumption that FTL was already completed and their kickstarter campaign was nothing more than a cash-grab.

Author:  LewieP [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

I didn't see the reward tiers for FTL, but surely offering people stuff for spending more money on your game isn't any worse than the stupid £100+ statue editions of games that publishers shove out, except that much more of the money is going to the creators, rather than the suits.

Author:  MrChris [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Suits get a bad rap, you know. But stuff doesn't happen without suits.

Author:  MaliA [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 10:38 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

heh. The cry of the artists.

Author:  LewieP [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 15:01 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Mr Kissyfur wrote:
Suits get a bad rap, you know. But stuff doesn't happen without suits.

Sure, but if small teams without suits can make interesting games, it's a more efficient use of game budgets.

Author:  Dimrill [ Thu Nov 29, 2012 16:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Amiga Power would have a field day with all of this, of course. And pre-orders.

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 0:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Shit Egg Game 9 is currently £328,492 short of its target with 19 days to go.

Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

Author:  Malc74 [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 2:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

*Guffaws*
Hopefully we can finally hammer the last nail into his rotund coffin, then.

Author:  Malc [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:18 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Man, I love(d) dizzy :(

Malc

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 10:48 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Malc wrote:
Man, I love(d) dizzy :(

Malc


I'd like to see a new Dizzy game, but trying to raise £350 grand for it is taking the piss big time. Therefore it deserves to fall flat on its arse (which it appears to be doing).

Author:  GazChap [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 13:41 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Yeah, you don't need £350K to make a fucking Dizzy game.

Author:  Curiosity [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 13:52 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Maybe they wanted to make it a MMOFPS?

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Sun Dec 02, 2012 14:19 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

GazChap wrote:


It's ironic that 2 coders who started out in their bedroom knocking out quick games that were very popular are now so out of touch they believe the public are such mugs that an established dev house should be handed 350 grand on a plate.

Author:  Dimrill [ Mon Dec 03, 2012 20:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: What the fuck is this shit?

Dimrill wrote:
As for Mr Burns imitator Moleytwat, I was understanding that 22 cans were going to do 22 "experiments" and just one game. So what is Godus? An "experiment" or the game? If it's an "experiment" such as Curiosity, not interested. If it's another flat-land-maintainer Populous, not interested. If it's another Black & White, certainly not interested. He has a track record of not delivering on promises made and now he expects people to be financially liable for those promises? Well...


Mealy mouthed lie breathed Molytwat backtracks on this, the lying liar.

Author:  LewieP [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:29 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

I thought the Wasteland 2 kickstarter was handled pretty well up to now, but it seems that despite raising over 3x what they needed to make the game, inXile are asking artists to do spec work for them.

Author:  MaliA [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:33 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

LewieP wrote:
I thought the Wasteland 2 kickstarter was handled pretty well up to now, but it seems that despite raising over 3x what they needed to make the game, inXile are asking artists to do spec work for them.


They'll pay them if they use them, though. Seems a decent enough deal, to me.

Author:  LewieP [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

That's what I said, except it doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

Edit: They got 3x their required funding for the game from Kickstarter. Why can't they hire an artist?

Edit2: and Unity asset store prices are notorious for being significantly lower than any contract artist would get.

Author:  MaliA [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

LewieP wrote:
That's what I said, except it doesn't sound like a good deal to me.

Edit: They got 3x their required funding for the game from Kickstarter. Why can't they hire an artist?

Edit2: and Unity asset store prices are notorious for being significantly lower than any contract artist would get.


As a way of checking out lots of people in a short time, I think it's a good bet for them to do it that way. If the prices are lower than a contract artist, then that's the market working. but I suspect we're coming at this from two different perspectives, so I'll leave it.

Author:  LewieP [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:55 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Checking out people's work is what portfolios are for, not asking them to make something for your game, then you decide whether to pay for it or not after they have made it. It's spec work, and it's unethical. How come none of their other staff are asked to do their job with only a chance of getting paid at the end of it?

Author:  metalangel [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 17:37 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Dev glad that their Kickstarter missed by $28

Quote:
The issue is/was that dev Christopher Williamson, of Dreamquest, had originally sought $500,000 for Alpha Colony, but closed down the initial Kickstarter when it became apparent this wouldn’t happen, though $100k had been pledged. So he returned with another KS looking for just a tenth of that mighty sum, which wound up $28 short when the line of death was crossed. This may have been a good thing.

“Although many consider this a failure and unfair, in the end, it is perhaps the kindest thing the universe could have done for us,” Williamson told Gamasutra. “To be committed to deliver my dream game underfunded, understaffed, and sub-par, and to lose even more time and money would have been even more heartbreaking.” He reckoned that, after staffing and pledger incentive costs, he’d have been left with very little with which to actually create meet his ambitions for the game. As such, they’d put up the deliberately low $50k Kickstarter “in the hopes that we could at least achieve the same $100k level we got before.”


Cheeky bastard even had found outside funding which would have matched his Kickstarter funds dollar for dollar.

Really getting sick of this perversion of the concept of making investments, and how headline grabbing it is.

Author:  MaliA [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 17:39 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

They aren't investments! They are donations in return for things. Investments (sometimes) make money.

Author:  metalangel [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 17:47 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

MaliA wrote:
They aren't investments! They are donations in return for things. Investments (sometimes) make money.


Donations in return for maybe getting something but no share of the profits. That's what I mean.

Author:  Squirt [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 18:05 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Quote:
He reckoned that, after staffing and pledger incentive costs, he’d have been left with very little with which to actually create...


If pledger incentive costs are using up a significant chunk of your cash, I'd suggest you're doing it wrong. I wonder how many "$50 : Free t-shirt with game!" type tiers actually end up losing people money.

Author:  Dimrill [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 18:10 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

John Shuttleworth (Graham Fellows) has an IndieGo thing up to try and fund an animated The Shuttleworths, but he's made the mistake of only having three tiers, the cheapest of which is £50! If he'd've('ll's) put some up for a fiver there'd be a lot more biters.

Author:  zaphod79 [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 18:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Squirt wrote:
Quote:
He reckoned that, after staffing and pledger incentive costs, he’d have been left with very little with which to actually create...


If pledger incentive costs are using up a significant chunk of your cash, I'd suggest you're doing it wrong. I wonder how many "$50 : Free t-shirt with game!" type tiers actually end up losing people money.


There are some interesting numbers from this from the AFP Kickstarter earlier this year

The bottom tier was a digital download for $1 , but when you start going up there are a lot of items which end up costing quite a bit to service , like concerts where there is travel / accommodation / etc , artbooks , or where she was giving custom painted record players which would have cost $X to buy / prepare / and ship - however everyone focused on the top line 'donations' money (1 million $)

Blog post where she outlines how the money all breaks down : http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/where- ... by-amanda/

Author:  throughsilver [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 18:34 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

I'd like to read it - especially as she cites the Albini piece - but the CAPS for EMPHASIS are really ANNOYING.

Author:  LewieP [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 18:35 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

That's the same AFP tour that she asked for background musicians to play for free, right?

Author:  Curiosity [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 18:51 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

LewieP wrote:
That's the same AFP tour that she asked for background musicians to play for free, right?


Indeed, and was absolutely swamped with people wanting to do it, because fucking hell what an amazing opportunity.

Author:  LewieP [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 20:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Seems exploitative to me.

Author:  Dimrill [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 20:25 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

The Broken Sword team has gone very quiet. I was having an update every other day at one point.

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 21:14 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Only 14 days until we get to laugh in the faces of the Oliver Twins. We need some kind of advent calendar for it.

Author:  Hearthly [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 21:21 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

chinnyhill10 wrote:
Only 14 days until we get to laugh in the faces of the Oliver Twins. We need some kind of advent calendar for it.


I almost feel a bit sorry for them now.

It's like that line in Jeff Wayne's War Of The Worlds - 'I suddenly had my first inkling of the gulf between his dreams and his powers'

Author:  Curiosity [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 21:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

LewieP wrote:
Seems exploitative to me.


Not really. Would have been hard for them to pay full rates for the tour, so giving willing volunteers a chance to play on stage with an idol of theirs is awesome. I doubt many/any regretted it.

I know that if a writing hero of mine wanted some help doing something that only took a small part of my time and effort, and I'd be able to say I collaborated with them, I'd bite their hand off.

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 21:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

AtrocityExhibition wrote:
chinnyhill10 wrote:
Only 14 days until we get to laugh in the faces of the Oliver Twins. We need some kind of advent calendar for it.


I almost feel a bit sorry for them now.


If it had been 100k, perhaps.

After all, it's a Dizzy game. The whole point was they were churned out quickly using a set format. They saved even more money by coding the CPC and Speccy versions at the same time. Then sell lots of copies for next to nothing.

You'd have thought they knew how it works and seen how Codemasters took a kicking with Crystal Kingdom Dizzy, the more polished full price game, which sold the sum total of fuck all.

The Prince Of The Yolkfolk remake wasn't a hit because, from my point of view, I wasn't paying again for a 20 year old game which I have (a) completed and (b) own on the Amiga. What was needed was a better version of that game engine + a entirely new plot.

Author:  zaphod79 [ Thu Dec 06, 2012 21:56 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Curiosity wrote:
LewieP wrote:
Seems exploitative to me.


Not really. Would have been hard for them to pay full rates for the tour, so giving willing volunteers a chance to play on stage with an idol of theirs is awesome. I doubt many/any regretted it.

I know that if a writing hero of mine wanted some help doing something that only took a small part of my time and effort, and I'd be able to say I collaborated with them, I'd bite their hand off.


She again created a long post to answer the questions around this http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/20120914/

Paraphrasing but these were extra people beyond what were in the band , they were volunteers that she sourced from twitter and other places and they were not getting them to play for 'free' (simply not for 'cash' - reading older posts you'll see her mentioning about 'passing round the hat' / free food & beer and a chance to sell their merchandise to a large audience)

Also as Curio mentioned she had many many willing volunteers , these were in some cases just fans who wanted to play on stage and had very little actual skill with the instruments and occasionally people who were her hero's :





Read the blog post for more info - and I realise that in this thread we're looking at people trying to use kickstarter for exploitation but I really dont believe thats the case for her.

Author:  Peter St. John [ Fri Dec 07, 2012 5:08 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

And this is Palmer a short while later, backing down and paying the volunteers:

http://www.amandapalmer.net/blog/20120919/

(saying that they often had no skill is selling the volunteer backers short - in order to go onstage they had to offer proof that they could actually play (to a semi-professional level) and turn up to a rehearsal. It wasn't just 'go up and play the triangle')

The whole affair left an unpleasant taste in my mouth, as she went ON AND ON about it during the Carrboro gig before she backed down and paid the volunteers, to the point where I left early…

Author:  lasermink [ Sat Dec 08, 2012 15:12 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

metalangel wrote:
MaliA wrote:
They aren't investments! They are donations in return for things. Investments (sometimes) make money.


Donations in return for maybe getting something but no share of the profits. That's what I mean.

Just how much money do you expect in return for a $20 investment? Presumably subtracting the $20 as payment for the product.

Author:  metalangel [ Sat Dec 08, 2012 16:17 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

lasermink wrote:
metalangel wrote:
MaliA wrote:
They aren't investments! They are donations in return for things. Investments (sometimes) make money.


Donations in return for maybe getting something but no share of the profits. That's what I mean.

Just how much money do you expect in return for a $20 investment? Presumably subtracting the $20 as payment for the product.


What about the higher tiers, then? I realize you're not being Dragon's fucking Den getting 30% of their company or something, but I still have a problem with this whole thing.

You're giving someone money towards something that doesn't even exist yet, and might not. Assuming it even gets finished, they could make a lot of money off it - money that they wouldn't have made without the finished product which wouldn't have been possible without you. All you have is the finished product. That's why I think you need a share of their pie: this isn't a finished product that exists already, it's something that won't exist unless you help.

Author:  Hearthly [ Mon Dec 10, 2012 14:27 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Godus is over halfway there with 11 days to go.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012- ... days-to-go

On one level I'd quite like him to make it, and see what the fuck it is that he comes up with.

Author:  Morte [ Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:50 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Looks like the Oliver twins have admitted defeat...and will not be making a new Dizzy game until we all apologise for not giving them cash.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/12 ... ore-135292

Author:  Hearthly [ Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:43 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Are rich old men ruining Kickstarter?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012- ... ickstarter

Quote:
Since I started writing, Molyneux has picked up another £1308. As for Braben, he's up by £3371. Perhaps all of the people who pledged that money understand that they have not put down a pre-order, and that it might not work out. But I doubt it. The fact that "Kickstarter Is Not A Store" is an official blog post - published as a warning back in September - speaks for itself. "It's hard to know how many people feel like they're shopping at a store when they're backing projects on Kickstarter," the blog begins, "but we want to make sure that it's no one."

Unfortunately, until these big game developers stop using Kickstarter to fund their work, I find it very difficult to believe that it will be no one. I will be happy to play a new god game, a new Elite, a new Double Fine adventure and Wasteland 2, but I would rather they were happening on other terms, and Kickstarter was left to the likes of FTL and Sportsfriends.

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:46 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Morte wrote:
Looks like the Oliver twins have admitted defeat...and will not be making a new Dizzy game until we all apologise for not giving them cash.

http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/12 ... ore-135292


Oh dear, how sad, never mind.

The reason it failed was it was a cynical cash grab. People who might have donated (i.e me) were put off by the sheer cynicism of it + the total lack of anything concrete.

Also if the IP owners hadn't been such arseholes about getting the original games pulled from World Of Spectrum (etc) then perhaps more people would have played the originals + I might feel better towards the project. These things come back to haunt you.

Author:  Dimrill [ Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Maybe.... just maybe.. this'll stop the retro gaming magazines writing about them and/or it.

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Sat Dec 15, 2012 13:13 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Dimrill wrote:
Maybe.... just maybe.. this'll stop the retro gaming magazines writing about them and/or it.


The story of Dizzy is quite dull aside from the first game. The Twins just churned out games like a sausage machine. Look at how good Super Robin Hood is on the CPC (their first Codies game). Then they worked out it was quicker to do Speccy ports and develop both versions at the same time and it was all downhill from there.

Many of their Codies games are actually very mediocre single screen affairs (Grand Prix Sim, Jet Bike Sim, Fruit Machine Sim, Pinball Sim, etc). Operation Gunship was quite good (if slow). Ironically some of the games they still took the credit for were programmed by others and were far better. IIRC every Dizzy game from Magic Land onwards was done by Big Red Software.

And the thing nobody remembers is that Seymour Goes To Hollywood is actually better than most of the Dizzy games anyway. Although sadly all that walking around the maze that is the studio backlot rather spoils it.

Author:  chinnyhill10 [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 20:26 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Dizzy has officially crashed and burned.

The Oliver Twins are probably wiping away their tears with £50 notes wondering how such a well thought out campaign could have achieved just 7.32% of its target.

Author:  Hearthly [ Fri Dec 21, 2012 20:31 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Godus made it though.

I'll be interested to see what they come up with.

Author:  Dimrill [ Tue Jan 08, 2013 20:49 ]
Post subject:  Re: Kickstarter

Another Kickstarter horror story.

Quote:
Code Hero's Kickstarter concluded on February 24, 2012, with 7,459 people pledging $170,954, almost doubling the project's requested amount and pushing that cash straight to developer Alex Peake. Peake described Code Hero as a game to help people, especially kids, learn how to code, and said he would use the money to launch a version of the game on August 31, with a Code Hero webseries and MMO also in the works.

Ten months later, on December 12, Code Hero had yet to launch in any form and Peake was absent from the Kickstarter conversation. Backers of the Code Hero Kickstarter fumed in the comments, informally requesting their money back, asking Peake where their rewards were, and questioning if Code Hero was a legitimate project at all. Leading the comment swarm was Dustin Deckard, a backer who had given Code Hero $300, but was now considering legal action against Peake and his studio, Primer Labs.


Moonlit flit.

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