Be Excellent To Each Other

The kids' christenings happened before I was on the scene. But I went to their first communions because they wanted me to be there and I was more concerned about upsetting them than by my own mild feelings of hypocricy. At the end of the day, if you don't believe in God lying to him's not that big a deal.

In any case. "Christening = child abuse" is a) Daily Mail-level hysterical and b) so wild and sweeping a generalisation that it's completely meaningless.

I don't understand this argument. If some entity out there, from my perspective, knows right now what I am going to eat for lunch tomorrow, then from my tiny little perspective, I can't be making a meaningful choice when I stand in the baguette shop.

If time can be perceived as flat, even by something that isn't me, then again, that implies time cannot change. Take the quantum many worlds theory; if there aren't a near-infinite number of possible universes, corresponding to each decision that has ever been made, then there can be only one universe, and in that one I had no choices.

Which neatly invalidates ever using a bible passage to back up a religious message surely?

I agree if you're standing beside me then I know your location you don't have free will within those 3 dimensions as such. If I could see dimension 4 as well as I can see those 3 then no, you're right you don't.

Not necessarily. Same as with case law - there are conflicting cases for most things at some point: the judges pick which seems to be more right in the context of everything else.

Well, both! Not that I have kids.



Well, let's examine it:

"my" values, which are subjective and based on current events and conditions, and may well change over my lifetime, versus a set of values written down thousands of years ago, are predicated on superstition, belief in scenarios which are literally not true, and can't be changed but are subject to constant wrangling over what they mean and how they can even be applied in the modern world (see stem cell research, etc).

Sorry, I'd still go with mine, fallible though they obviously are.

It's a good job Tories have less kids, isn't it? Otherwise we'd live in a country where the majority believed in Tory Values passed on to them by their Tory Parents.

Entirely unlike religion

Free will is an interesting one for me. As Mr. Dave pointed out, I may think I have free will over any decision I make, but once I've made it I can't go back and change it. So ultimately, does it even matter if you have free will or not?

What also interests me is emotion, particularly at the moment. Over the last couple of months I have discovered love to be both the very best and the very worst things a person can experience. If you believe everything is pre-ordained, then the decisions I have made recently were pre-set and I had no real choice in them. So why do I have to feel like shit for them all the poxy bloody time? Whereas, if I have free will, surely you can say that my feelings are either a punishment for making bad decisions, or a lesson to make better decisions in future.

I'm really going to have to read The God Delusion at some point. As it stands, I do believe in God and, to some extent, the Divine Plan as mentioned in that Carlin quote above. But it would be hypocrisy for me to describe myself as a 'Christian', or indeed to align myself to any established religion. My reasons are very simple - this is a facinating and complex universe we live in, and to suggest that it all just appeared by some freak chance seems like madness. What would be the point? So I'd love to hear a commited atheist's take on it all.

It's funny because it's true.

And this is why, presumably, religions generally don't agree with contraception..

Lummy. You go play Fallout for a couple of hours and the kids all go bonkers.

If you are a committed Christian and you don't baptise/christen your kids, that would be a form of child abuse in your own eyes, would it not? Preventing them from receiving salvation and all that?

Duds - That 'promising your kids to Chris', thing - you know the church doesn't actually get to cash that in at any point, right?




EDIT - Ha, promising your kids to Chris. Now that would create a dangerous cult.

Put on this gimp suit and find out.

It'd be the opposite of The World Without Lawyers:

Only dangerous to DWEEBS and GINGERS. FEAR MY ARMY OF BLOND HAIRED TYKES.

EDIT - Heh @ The Gaywood.

This committed atheist's take on it all:

There doesn't have to be a point. It just is. Let's get on with making the best of it.

Not terribly in-depth or scientific, sorry.

So, Tories then. England is a country where it seems the majority do believe in Good Old Fashioned Tory Values passed on to them by their Tory Parents and their Holy Book, the Daily Mail. But at least it's not a belief system that comes from a 2000 year old religion, so that's alright, then.

I wouldn't really call myself a committed atheist, but that is entirely my view on the universe.

Tweaked slightly for me.

Good point, well made!

I can never tell when you're taking the piss, Kalmar. But yes, I sort of said the same thing twice there. I meant to edit the original rather than reply, but left it as is. *shrug*. We can leave it for future Chris-ists to pore over and try and divine the Almighty Mr Chris's intentions.

So anyway, would Humanzees have souls?

Parent's can raise their kids as they like. My opinions on it don't matter in the slightest. You won't get me baptising my child. Or trying to convince it to be an atheist - i think i'll try to hide my beliefs from them in the same way my parents did. It was a brilliant move, without authority figures to automatically side with I was a lot more critical of what the teachers were telling me. Still believed in God for a good few years after santa though.

Talking of schools someone I know works in a very, very moderate catholic school. And looking at their lesson plans and guides and what they have to teach 5 year olds*, I would definitely call that brain washing and wrong. I think teaching kids things you can't possibly know for certain, when they lack the intellectual ability to even comprehend you could be telling falsehoods is inherently wrong. I think it's most telling that religions do their best to get God into children whilst during the period where they'll believe in tooth faries and santa.

But yeah, I'm keeping out of this. I've only skimmed this, but I think Duds may have daily mailed this.


* I'm going to try and do a few posts about them on Skeptobot actually - if they can sneak me a copy of the teaching guide. It's fucked up.

Well I was sort of agreeing with you, both times, if that helps

I still feel that
"modern liberal secular values > ones in an old book" though, in general..
Especially with all the baggage of organised religion that can come with it.

Hooray!


Oh, I do agree with you, being a big ol' liberal secularist myself.

Except if the old book was written by Aristotle or Socrates, or someone like that.

Are you just going to repeatedly ask the questions I asked, Mr Chris, only phrased somewhat differently?

Um, no?